Georgia Tech Game & Other Dribbles ...

[Ski11585]

I admit I missed the game so I’m just checking the box score and he could have played atrocious defense but I want to eat a little crow regarding Horton. I feel like I was right there alongside @BballinsiderfromPitt leading the charge giving @Fsgolfdr a hard time after Horton’s slow start, but he’s been a good contributor the last 3-4 games.

Sibande, on the other hand, seems as much a bust as @thirteenNINE predicted.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

I admit I missed the game so I’m just checking the box score and he could have played atrocious defense but I want to eat a little crow regarding Horton. I feel like I was right there alongside @BballinsiderfromPitt leading the charge giving @Fsgolfdr a hard time after Horton’s slow start, but he’s been a good contributor the last 3-4 games.

Sibande, on the other hand, seems as much a bust as @thirteenNINE predicted.

To be fair, I’ve eaten crow on Horton despite me predicting preseason him to average 8 per game and him right around 10 right now is not too far off. He’s really adjusted and started doing more than just shoot 3’s.

My main quibble about Horton was the declaration by Capel last year he was the best scorer in the ACC which of course was absurd.

 

[Vader_Storm]

Horton Non Conference Schedule, 20.8 minutes per game

5.4 ppg

Horton ACC Conference Schedule

12.1 ppg




Your saving grace is literally 2 things from being "way" off.

1) Ithiel Horton was rusty in the non conference schedule after a 2 year hiatus from basketball. That rust is gone as his scoring is way up against much better defenses in the ACC.

2) Horton plays 30 minutes per game in the ACC schedule. I think that is still far too low as preseason I had him around 35-36 mpg. Trey Mcgowens averaged 34 minutes per game last year. Toney plays 36 minutes per game, Champ 35. If Horton averaged 36 minutes per game in the ACC, he would be averaging 14.2 points per game. and would be in the Top 15 in the entire ACC in scoring. He isn't played nearly enough for the value return we are getting. That, and Sibande just isnt working out. Horton's scoring average next year should be 15+ points per game.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

I admit I missed the game so I’m just checking the box score and he could have played atrocious defense but I want to eat a little crow regarding Horton. I feel like I was right there alongside @BballinsiderfromPitt leading the charge giving @Fsgolfdr a hard time after Horton’s slow start, but he’s been a good contributor the last 3-4 games.

Sibande, on the other hand, seems as much a bust as @thirteenNINE predicted.

Having never seen Horton play the only thing to on was his coaches endorsement. JC was so effusive about Horton‘s abilities I just couldn’t see why a coach would put that kind of pressure on a kid and himself if he honestly didn’t believe in him .

I‘d love to hear JC say when Jeffress and Collier mature they’re going to be great players because along with Horton and Femi they are the future of the program.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Horton Non Conference Schedule, 20.8 minutes per game

5.4 ppg

Horton ACC Conference Schedule

12.1 ppg




Your saving grace is literally 2 things from being "way" off.

1) Ithiel Horton was rusty in the non conference schedule after a 2 year hiatus from basketball. That rust is gone as his scoring is way up against much better defenses in the ACC.

2) Horton plays 30 minutes per game in the ACC schedule. I think that is still far too low as preseason I had him around 35-36 mpg. Trey Mcgowens averaged 34 minutes per game last year. Toney plays 36 minutes per game, Champ 35. If Horton averaged 36 minutes per game in the ACC, he would be averaging 14.2 points per game. and would be in the Top 15 in the entire ACC in scoring. He isn't played nearly enough for the value return we are getting. That, and Sibande just isnt working out. Horton's scoring average next year should be 15+ points per game.

If I didn’t have balls I’d be a woman. Your hypotheticals on how many points he would average if he played more minutes are absolutely absurd as is the rest of that ridiculously long post.

If he ever averages 15 points per game in the ACC it will mean he is shooting way too much and Pitt sucks. He’s averaging 10 on 9 shots. Hes not setting the world on fire. The only thing keeping my prediction from not being DEAD ON is his overuse based on the terrible offensive sets we have.

 

[PittAU]

Didn't we lose this game at the foul line?

 

[Vader_Storm]

If I didn’t have balls I’d be a woman. Your hypotheticals on how many points he would average if he played more minutes are absolutely absurd as is the rest of that ridiculously long post.

If he ever averages 15 points per game in the ACC it will mean he is shooting way too much and Pitt sucks. He’s averaging 10 on 9 shots. Hes not setting the world on fire. The only thing keeping my prediction from not being DEAD ON is his overuse based on the terrible offensive sets we have.

ACC Conference only Stats

Horton

30 minutes per game

ORTG offensive rating- 113.8 -29th best in the entire ACC Conference. 12th best in the ACC for all underclassmen

3 point shooting percentage against ACC Conference Teams-41%

True Shooting Percentage in ACC play- 54%




For reference, Ashton Gibbs as a sophomore against Big East only teams

35 minutes per game
ORTG-120
3 point percentage against Big East Teams- 36.4%
True Shooting Percentage- 56.1%


Horton is almost right there with Gibbs ( as a sophomore across the board except minutes per game).

 

[Drew1208]

I know this isn't popular but I'm starting to think there's a better chance than i thought before that he may come back.
I still think he probably leaves but the probability of him staying i think has gone up.

 

[DT_PITT]

Pretty much agree with everything said. This loss isn't an endictment on this team or anything different than what should be expected. We were a 5 point dog today to GT and lost by 6. We were what we were supposed to be and anyone who thinks any differently is just delusional.

Yes, we can play better.

Yes, we could have won this game.

Yes, we are every bit as good as GT.

However...............

We can and have played worse.

GT was ahead most of the game.

GT is every bit as good as us.


I just don't understand all of the craziness around this game and many of the others. Ultimately, we have just about an even chance to win or lose any of our games. Our remaining 5 will all be games that we could just as easily win as lose and hopefully we end up on the winning side of the ledger more than the losing side. Ending on a losing streak would be very disappointing, just as winning every game would be incredible. More than likely we are looking at winning 2 or 3 more and none would surprise me any more than the other.

The only disappointing thing is that we can indeed play better. We know this ... we've seen this.

It's a little bit easier to take losses when we don't shoot well, or if the other team is simply better. This time, our own mistakes did us in.

 

[DT_PITT]

Shortest Dribbles I can ever remember from you. Wow. Matt on the pay board said Xavier Johnson at this point is damaged goods. Do you agree DT? He hasn't made ANY improvement from year 1 to year 3 which is very disappointing.

I can't exactly respond to the "damaged goods" comment because I'm not exactly sure what it means. What we do know is that X is very inconsistent and struggles at times to play at a pace that always benefits his team. He's best when he's aggressive, even if that requires a few mistakes. But 7 turnovers -- 5 in the first half in just 11 minutes is simply too many.

But let's note something else. The TEAM made 7 other turnovers in the first half. The offense was just as ineffective with our without X. Player movement in the offense was not nearly what was needed, and every Panther on the court played a part in this.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

** I'm not going to try to come up with anything clever for this one. The loss is pretty clear and straighforward.

** We simply do not have the talent to make up for problematic errors in a game when they occur. In this game, it was turnovers and terrible offensive execution in the first half.

** And this was indeed a game where the foul line played a deciding role, both with an exceptional performance by Ga Tech and a substandard one by the Panthers.

** A shout out to Ithiel who was exceptional scoring the ball, and his defense continues to improve.

** Beyong that, I wish I had something better or smarter to add.

** I can only hope that we can put some wins together soon, because if we crash for a third straight year under Capel, it's hard to look at that in any positive way,

GT has better players and played better. That simple.

They have a senior team making a push for the NCAAT. We can only hope our team comes back so we can make a similar push next year

 

[Vader_Storm]

I know this isn't popular but I'm starting to think there's a better chance than i thought before that he may come back.
I still think he probably leaves but the probability of him staying i think has gone up.

The 2021 National Class is "Not" Strong. It is weak Nationally overall.

That can certainly come into play in terms of him getting drafted higher with another year in college.

Its also why we got feelers out on multiple players in 2022 for a reclass to 2021. The overall talent and depth of the 2021 class is not good.

 

[Drew1208]

Is this the 2nd or 3rd game we got a technical for complaining to the refs or yelling "And 1."
Looks like we've created a reputation for ourselves and it's not a good one.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

The 2021 National Class is "Not" Strong. It is weak Nationally overall.

That can certainly come into play in terms of him getting drafted higher with another year in college.

Its also why we got feelers out on multiple players in 2022 for a reclass to 2021. The overall talent and depth of the 2021 class is not good.

Lol. Wonder why you’re touting that now. Do you understand how stupid that sounds?

 

[Vader_Storm]

Lol. Wonder why you’re touting that now. Do you understand how stupid that sounds?

Ive been saying it for over a year about 2021 being weak. Get it straight.

When the 2021 reclass players into 2020 like Kristian Lander, Moussa Cissa, Carter Whitt, Frank Alselem, or Gabe Wiznitzer, struggle all from reclassifying off the top of my head, its telling where that 2021 class sits. None of these players were good enough to reclass and do real damage, including Jeffress this year. Even Adama Sanogo, a player Ive always been very high on and touted as underrated, isnt lighting the college basketball world on fire with his reclass.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Ive been saying it for over a year about 2021 being weak. Get it straight.

When the 2021 reclass players into 2020 like Kristian Lander, Moussa Cissa, Carter Whitt, Frank Alselem, or Gabe Wiznitzer, struggle all from reclassifying off the top of my head, its telling where that 2021 class sits. None of these players were good enough to reclass and do real damage, including Jeffress this year. Even Adama Sanogo, a player Ive always been very high on and touted as underrated, isnt lighting the college basketball world on fire with his reclass.

Cool man. I guess that’s why we don’t have any good players coming in. The staff is being strategic and not taking any good players in this class while everyone else does. Very smart.

 

[DT_PITT]

If I didn’t have balls I’d be a woman. Your hypotheticals on how many points he would average if he played more minutes are absolutely absurd as is the rest of that ridiculously long post.

If he ever averages 15 points per game in the ACC it will mean he is shooting way too much and Pitt sucks. He’s averaging 10 on 9 shots. Hes not setting the world on fire. The only thing keeping my prediction from not being DEAD ON is his overuse based on the terrible offensive sets we have.

Hey ... what's your beef with ridiculously long posts!

 

[ThePanthers]

Is this the 2nd or 3rd game we got a technical for complaining to the refs or yelling "And 1."
Looks like we've created a reputation for ourselves and it's not a good one.

This, and I may be in the minority, but I've been saying since X was a freshman, he flops A LOT. I don't think officials like that.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I can't exactly respond to the "damaged goods" comment because I'm not exactly sure what it means. What we do know is that X is very inconsistent and struggles at times to play at a pace that always benefits his team. He's best when he's aggressive, even if that requires a few mistakes. But 7 turnovers -- 5 in the first half in just 11 minutes is simply too many.

But let's note something else. The TEAM made 7 other turnovers in the first half. The offense was just as ineffective with our without X. Player movement in the offense was not nearly what was needed, and every Panther on the court played a part in this.

Did you like my Basketball Diaries reference? Because this team in stretches, reminds me of when Carroll and his friends played that game all high.

 

[Drew1208]

This, and I may be in the minority, but I've been saying since X was a freshman, he flops A LOT. I don't think officials like that.

I don't think he's a notorious flopper to me.
But there's always a game inside the game and looks like we are losing that.
They are losing the respect of refs and the benefit of the doubt.
That shit wouldn't fly with me.
Id be on some Mike Sullivan shit and just tell them to play the game.

 

[PittMan 72]

Pretty much agree with everything said. This loss isn't an endictment on this team or anything different than what should be expected. We were a 5 point dog today to GT and lost by 6. We were what we were supposed to be and anyone who thinks any differently is just delusional.

Yes, we can play better.

Yes, we could have won this game.

Yes, we are every bit as good as GT.

However...............

We can and have played worse.

GT was ahead most of the game.

GT is every bit as good as us.


I just don't understand all of the craziness around this game and many of the others. Ultimately, we have just about an even chance to win or lose any of our games. Our remaining 5 will all be games that we could just as easily win as lose and hopefully we end up on the winning side of the ledger more than the losing side. Ending on a losing streak would be very disappointing, just as winning every game would be incredible. More than likely we are looking at winning 2 or 3 more and none would surprise me any more than the other.

Good post. Sums it up pretty well. This team & program right now lacks consistency: from game to game and at times within a game.

As far as “all of the craziness around this game and many of the others” there are some folks that can’t - or won’t - recognize the distinction between the words “explanation” and “excuse”.

There are never any excuses for losing. But there are reasonable explanations that can help the more rational folks better understand things. Ultimately, Pitt right now needs more consistently strong play from a core group that currently consists of about 6 guys: 2 Jr’s; 3 Sophs; 1 Fr. It’s unfortunate that TB isn’t able to help more. Same with GD. It’s also unfortunate that the Hugley situation has put Pitt down a potential front court player. The other 3 FR haven’t shown the seasoning needed to play effectively in the ACC yet. Personally the more curious guy for me is Nike. Thought he could at least be a decent back-up and spare part. But that hasn’t materialized at all.

But what all of this has led to is that Pitt has a very razor thin margin for error. If any of the 6 mainstays are off their game in any aspect or limited by foul trouble, it makes it all the more difficult for Pitt to play a consistent 40 minutes needed to win.

Capel is responsible for the roster. That Pitt doesn’t have all the pieces in place presently needed to win more consistently makes him a lightning rod for fan criticism and complaints. He needs more capable players added to the program as soon as next year. Right now, we don’t know who they are. That adds to the angst.

Fan approval (not necessarily reflected by those posting on a message board) from those fans who TANGIBLY support the program is important because it impacts ticket sales (hopefully we’ll be allowed in this coming season?) and donations. But most important is getting the approval of the job he is doing from his employers. He’s evaluated after the season as to his employer’s expectations, just like all other employees.

Chances are the fans may have different expectations than his bosses. But progress will be expected. It will depend on what Pitt’s expectations as far as what is reasonable that will matter. In comparison to how they feel HCJC is meeting those expectations that have been established for him.

 

[Bethlehemjohn]

The only disappointing thing is that we can indeed play better. We know this ... we've seen this.

It's a little bit easier to take losses when we don't shoot well, or if the other team is simply better. This time, our own mistakes did us in.

We can, but we don't do it all the time and as fans we know that. Consistency is our biggest issue, but we should all know that by now. So, to go into any game expecting us to perform at a certain level just because we have seen it a few times, is setting yourself up to be disappointed.

 

[PittMan 72]

We can, but we don't do it all the time and as fans we know that. Consistency is our biggest issue, but we should all know that by now. So, to go into any game expecting us to perform at a certain level just because we have seen it a few times, is setting yourself up to be disappointed.

The only way to remedy the gaps that cause inconsistency created when a player (or players) is struggling is to have competent back-ups. I thought (apparently mistakenly) after some observations earlier in the season, that 3 guys could have a chance to potentially provide Pitt with maybe just enough quality depth to help elevate the team and take some of the pressure off the core 6: Nike, Hugley and TB.

Maybe HJC thought that, too? IDK. But it hasn’t happened. Winning in the ACC with just 6 reliable players is very difficult if any of them isn’t playing at their best in a game.

But he HAS to rectify it. Ideally Nike and TB would somehow “see the light” right now (very doubtful). But absolutely before next season. He’ll need to have at least 8 or 9 guys he KNOWS he can rely on to be capable of producing in game situations vs top level opposition. Development of current guys? Additions (Recruits or Transfers?). Gonna be very important.

 

[JS School]

DT said it. TALENT. We don’t have nearly enough. Not close.

To win, we have to outperform the other teams at the other four positions if they have a decent big man. Can't do that consistently, particularly with an erratic PG.

I like Coulibaly, but he's just too short, unathletic and inexperienced to handle it by himself at this point.

 

[mo cheeks]

Calling X "damaged goods" is ridiculous. He is volatile. He is trying to do the right thing. Sometimes he is on, and he is all ACC first team. Sometimes he is off, and he hurts the team. his effort is there. his desire is there. every game. He is near the leader in assists in the ACC, isn't he ? He needs to get consistent, somehow. He is an incredible athlete.

 

[Chescat]

Calling X "damaged goods" is ridiculous. He is volatile. He is trying to do the right thing. Sometimes he is on, and he is all ACC first team. Sometimes he is off, and he hurts the team. his effort is there. his desire is there. every game. He is near the leader in assists in the ACC, isn't he ? He needs to get consistent, somehow. He is an incredible athlete.

Yup, I agree. Your use of the word "sometimes"
screams of the one thing about him..... CONSISTENCY.

 

[pittjas]

Calling X "damaged goods" is ridiculous. He is volatile. He is trying to do the right thing. Sometimes he is on, and he is all ACC first team. Sometimes he is off, and he hurts the team. his effort is there. his desire is there. every game. He is near the leader in assists in the ACC, isn't he ? He needs to get consistent, somehow. He is an incredible athlete.

He needs better teammates so he can pick his spots to attack instead of being forced to create it all night in, night out.

 

[Franb]

He needs better teammates so he can pick his spots to attack instead of being forced to create it all night in, night out.

He has a teammate who is in consideration for ACC player of the year, maybe he needs to find him more consistently.

 

[pittjas]

He has a teammate who is in consideration for ACC player of the year, maybe he needs to find him more consistently.

... who creates nothing for himself

 

[Chescat]

Even though some of us have mentioned
X's consistency, I feel there are important
factors that 1. either bring about this
consistency, or 2. keep it from happening.
As I see X, it's maturity and and/or
decision making that matter. When he
makes the decision to run the offense
it bodes well for Pitt. When things break
down, what I see is X adding to the problem
by making the decision to taking matters
into his own hands instead of getting his
team mates back on track. By this time,
three years as our starting pg, this maturity
should IMO be in place with him. As we all
know, it isn't consistently there yet. That's
why some posters describe him as "Good X"
or "Bad X."
It's so frustrating because we've seen how
effective he is when he makes the right
decisions regarding his role as the team's
pg.

 

[Pittx9]

I think my biggest question is how do you not come out prepared after eight days off? As Souf said in another thread to my response and one I’m sure we all know....as X goes we go. He has to let the game come to him instead of constantly trying to force things. We were completely out of rhythm the entire first half and most of the second half. Guys standing there when Coulibaly had the ball each time on the perimeter. This Georgia Tech team was NOT good and its a team that we should have beaten by 20, like Syracuse.

They’re not good, but Alvarado is a damn good player. You had to know going on he could go off for 30 and beat us. What’s strange is they held him to 12 and still lost. That was far from a gimme game, but if you told me before he’d only have 12 points and go 0-1 from three... I’d say no chance in hell Pitt loses.

 

[Chescat]

They’re not good, but Alvarado is a damn good player. You had to know going on he could go off for 30 and beat us. What’s strange is they held him to 12 and still lost. That was far from a gimme game, but if you told me before he’d only have 12 points and go 0-1 from three... I’d say no chance in hell Pitt loses.

Yes, "Alvarado is a damn good player."
Maybe he didn't go off for 30 as you
stated (he didn't have to). IMO he
played a hell of a floor game on both
ends.
There's a lot of posts on here following
the game about X not getting it done.
As I saw it, a lot of that was due to
Alvarez's aggressive play. He's a tough
guy out there, and I feel he got under
X's skin as the game wore on.

BTW, Alvarado was 3-6 from the field
and 6-6 on FT's. He also had 7 rebounds,
5 assists and only 3 TO's. Smallest guy
on the floor and he out rebounded all
of his team mates. Match that against
X with 4 assists, 1 rebound and 7 TO's.
GT led by him, matched our intensity.
Our guys don't back down, but neither
does GT led by their tough pg.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Is this the 2nd or 3rd game we got a technical for complaining to the refs or yelling "And 1."
Looks like we've created a reputation for ourselves and it's not a good one.

But like I said yesterday, it's also piss-poor officiating when a couple dozen times a game someone yells "And 1" right after a shot and the refs call exactly one technical foul for it.

And yeah, a couple dozen is an exageration. But not by much. I'll bet it's easily 10 to 15 times a game, and sometimes more than that.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

There's a lot of posts on here following
the game about X not getting it done.
As I saw it, a lot of that was due to
Alvarez's aggressive play. He's a tough
guy out there, and I feel he got under
X's skin as the game wore on.

That was one of those games when Johnson felt like he had to "prove something" based on the guy he was playing against, and that usually doesn't work out well for him.

 

[Drew1208]

But like I said yesterday, it's also piss-poor officiating when a couple dozen times a game someone yells "And 1" right after a shot and the refs call exactly one technical foul for it.

And yeah, a couple dozen is an exageration. But not by much. I'll bet it's easily 10 to 15 times a game, and sometimes more than that.

Oh yeah I'm not saying the officials don't suck.
I'm saying they are humans deeply flawed humans and you have to learn how to play them.

 

[Chescat]

That was one of those games when Johnson felt like he had to "prove something" based on the guy he was playing against, and that usually doesn't work out well for him.

Yeah, I agree. Unfortunately that gets
back to my earlier post about maturity
and decision making. Alvarado is one
physically tough guard who is also
talented. I would guess Capel and the
coaching staff went over Alvarado's
physicality in their pre game prep.
So, what did X prove? To me he proved
that a guy like Alvarado can take him
out of his game.
As you know, the GT coaching staff
knows very well about X's demeanor.
I'm sure it's part of their game plan.
Hell, if we're talking about it on a
message board, you can bet what those
coaches are planning and doing.

 

[thirteenNINE]

I admit I missed the game so I’m just checking the box score and he could have played atrocious defense but I want to eat a little crow regarding Horton. I feel like I was right there alongside @BballinsiderfromPitt leading the charge giving @Fsgolfdr a hard time after Horton’s slow start, but he’s been a good contributor the last 3-4 games.

Sibande, on the other hand, seems as much a bust as @thirteenNINE predicted.

It's a shame that Horton was talked up quite so far (and ended up getting the requisite board blowback because of it) because what he is right now is a pretty useful ACC role player as a sophomore with enough headroom left in his development to be a good uppperclassman even if he's still a turnstile on defense. I think that we would all of been pretty happy with that the day after his transfer was announced.

As for Sibande, I don't take any pleasure in his struggles and now that he's thankfully not tying up a two year scholarship he is just kind of a warm practice body which is whatever. It's just a good lesson that if you're taking a mid major transfer from a volume scorer that he had better darned well be a legit NBA prospect because otherwise those kids almost never pan out.

 

[Chescat]

Oh yeah I'm not saying the officials don't suck.
I'm saying they are humans deeply flawed humans and you have to learn how to play them.

You do "have to know how to play
them," But...."deeply flawed humans."
Now, we might say they suck and all
that while watching...but "deeply
flawed." LOL That might be a first.

 

[Pittisit4me]

Pretty much agree with everything said. This loss isn't an endictment on this team or anything different than what should be expected. We were a 5 point dog today to GT and lost by 6. We were what we were supposed to be and anyone who thinks any differently is just delusional.

Yes, we can play better.

Yes, we could have won this game.

Yes, we are every bit as good as GT.

However...............

We can and have played worse.

GT was ahead most of the game.

GT is every bit as good as us.


I just don't understand all of the craziness around this game and many of the others. Ultimately, we have just about an even chance to win or lose any of our games. Our remaining 5 will all be games that we could just as easily win as lose and hopefully we end up on the winning side of the ledger more than the losing side. Ending on a losing streak would be very disappointing, just as winning every game would be incredible. More than likely we are looking at winning 2 or 3 more and none would surprise me any more than the other.

Not sure I agree, John. We have lost 5 of our last 6 and we know about 2nd half tailspins. This team appears to be in another one. They just are not good enough, like DT said.

While past performance is no guarantee for future projections, I would say that while these games are winnable, I don't consider any of them a 50/50 proposition. We are far more likely to go 2-3 or worse than we are to go 3-2 or better.

 

[Chescat]

Not sure I agree, John. We have lost 5 of our last 6 and we know about 2nd half tailspins. This team appears to be in another one. They just are not good enough, like DT said.

While past performance is no guarantee for future projections, I would say that while these games are winnable, I don't consider any of them a 50/50 proposition. We are far more likely to go 2-3 or worse than we are to go 3-2 or better.

Much as I'd like to win all of the
remaining games, I'd be more than
happy if we won 2 of them. It's
too bad we haven't played BC yet.
Are we even going to play BC?
Two wins against them and one against
WF would be realistic IMO.