OT: The mess that is the Penguins

[Dr. von Yinzer]

This reminds me a lot of a debate I had for years with a friend of mine regarding Troy Polamalu. My buddy is also a huge Steelers fan and he just hated No. 43.

If you asked him right now who was the most overrated player in NFL history he would immediately blurt out the name Troy Polamalu.

My buddy really thought Polamalu was a liability to the Steelers’ defense over the years because he was always out of position and regularly following his instincts rather than the structure of the defense.

For many, many years, during every Steelers game, every single time the defense would surrender a touchdown, I would get a text from him blaming it all on the Steelers’ strong safety. To be perfectly honest, he was often right.

However, he was also missing the bigger picture. Polamalu was prone to dumb mistakes and he could be a liability in pass coverage. However, he was also a tremendous asset to that defense because he was so explosive and instinctive and it made the defense extraordinarily unpredictable, which in turn helped create indecision on the part of the opposing offenses, which made the defense better.

However, if you are just judging Polamalu through the narrow lens of pass coverage responsibilities them yes, he at times looked like a horrible player.

I think that is extraordinarily analogous to what we have with Letang and the Penguins. If you are only judging him based solely on his mistakes then of course he’s going to come out on the wrong side of any analysis. However, if you evaluate his play with a broader and more comprehensive lens, it’s very clear that he has long been a unique weapon for the Pittsburgh Penguins and an ENORMOUS reason for the team’s success over the past decade.

 

[WiseAndGlorious]

No doubt. Here's another thought.......while it sucks the Pens had to give him up in the Expansion draft, I am not sure where he stood on the Hall of Fame candidacy. I think this year, and likely the next few now, MAF piling up more wins as the primary is going to make him a slam dunk HOF selection now. Which with Fleury in 2002, Geno in 2004 and Sid in 2005, all 1st ballot HOFers with those picks, no wonder why this team has won 3 cups in this span.

I love MAF guy, but slam dunk HOF? Pump the brakes. The list of goalies that have been voted in since Billy Smith is pretty select: Fuhr, Hasek, Roy, Belfour and soon to be Brodeur.

 

[FreeportPanther]

No doubt. Here's another thought.......while it sucks the Pens had to give him up in the Expansion draft, I am not sure where he stood on the Hall of Fame candidacy. I think this year, and likely the next few now, MAF piling up more wins as the primary is going to make him a slam dunk HOF selection now. Which with Fleury in 2002, Geno in 2004 and Sid in 2005, all 1st ballot HOFers with those picks, no wonder why this team has won 3 cups in this span.

It's funny, but with hindsight being 50/50 as Walt famously opined, the BOLD move prior to the expansion draft would have been to trade Murray for a top flight Defenseman, keep Fleury for the remainder of his contract and go with one of the three top goal prospects they had under their control.
They would have had to expose another good player to the expansion draft, but it would have made all this hand wringing over the defense corps moot.
Not that Murray is chopped liver, he's certainly can be an elite goalie, but he too slumped this year at crunch time. All the talk about his glove side has gone from ridiculous speculation to real concern. I'll give him a pass this year because like Letang, he had some serious issues during the season, not the least of which was losing his dad which can derail anyone from their normal routine.
Can't go back and change anything, and at this point you live with the decisions that were made, but it is fun to play the what if game. I seem to recall that one of the western Canada teams were really hot after Murray, and were dangling a pretty solid D-man in return.

In any event I'm all in for Fleury. I was never a big Neal fan, but that team of high end castoffs is really doing some amazing things in these playoffs!

 

[FreeportPanther]

I love MAF guy, but slam dunk HOF? Pump the brakes. The list of goalies that have been voted in since Billy Smith is pretty select: Fuhr, Hasek, Roy, Belfour and soon to be Brodeur.

You don't see Fleury, with his stats and three cups fitting in with that group? Wow!

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

No doubt. Here's another thought.......while it sucks the Pens had to give him up in the Expansion draft, I am not sure where he stood on the Hall of Fame candidacy. I think this year, and likely the next few now, MAF piling up more wins as the primary is going to make him a slam dunk HOF selection now. Which with Fleury in 2002, Geno in 2004 and Sid in 2005, all 1st ballot HOFers with those picks, no wonder why this team has won 3 cups in this span.

Fleury is another guy that I have long championed – sometimes to great derision.

He had an absolutely horrendous playoff series against the Flyers a few years back and he was not great in a few other series as well. However, he has also been spectacular in many series for the Penguins – including last year‘s series against the Washington Capitals.

If you look at his career numbers it should be a surprise to absolutely nobody that he is excelling in the desert. He has been a great player for a very long time even if the hockey community at large failed to fully appreciate it.

I keep hearing analysts say that he’s playing the best hockey of his career and I think that’s almost certainly untrue. He’s basically playing at the same level he has almost always played at – it’s just that now he’s getting more attention.

I remember as recently as last year arguing on this message board that he was a tremendous steal for Vegas. There were people who were literally wondering why anyone would want him? He’s no good. He’s washed up. All the rest of it. Well, he is very clearly/conclusively proving those people dead wrong.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

It's funny, but with hindsight being 50/50 as Walt famously opined, the BOLD move prior to the expansion draft would have been to trade Murray for a top flight Defenseman, keep Fleury for the remainder of his contract and go with one of the three top goal prospects they had under their control.
They would have had to expose another good player to the expansion draft, but it would have made all this hand wringing over the defense corps moot.
Not that Murray is chopped liver, he's certainly can be an elite goalie, but he too slumped this year at crunch time. All the talk about his glove side has gone from ridiculous speculation to real concern. I'll give him a pass this year because like Letang, he had some serious issues during the season, not the least of which was losing his dad which can derail anyone from their normal routine.
Can't go back and change anything, and at this point you live with the decisions that were made, but it is fun to play the what if game. I seem to recall that one of the western Canada teams were really hot after Murray, and were dangling a pretty solid D-man in return.

In any event I'm all in for Fleury. I was never a big Neal fan, but that team of high end castoffs is really doing some amazing things in these playoffs!

That would’ve been an insane decision by the Penguins.

Look, I love the Flower as much as anyone and I am rooting hard for Vegas to win the whole thing because of him. How can you not root for that guy?

However, the Penguins had a younger, cheaper, better performing player coming off back-to-back Stanley Cups while still in his early 20s. It would not have been bold to trade him, it would’ve been straight up stupid.

The Penguins did not lose in the playoffs because of any one player – it was a team effort.

Let’s play this forward and assume that they did trade Murray to Vegas and kept Fleury. Now, let’s assume that the season played out the exact same way with Pittsburgh losing in the second round to a better Capitals team and Vegas using it’s incredible depth, speed and good goaltending to its advantage to make the conference finals.

Can you imagine the roasting Pittsburgh would be (rightly) receiving right now? Every single game the announcers would say, “You know, for some bizarre reason Pittsburgh elected to let this 23-year-old kid walk even though he just won the team back-to-back Stanley Cups and now he’s on the verge of doing the same with Vegas.”

Jim Rutherford has engendered a ton of goodwill here in his time as general manager and for good reason. He has done a fabulous job! However, all of that equity would be gone in a heartbeat were the situation to play out like I just described – which would have been very, very likely.

Pittsburgh had two excellent goaltenders and they chose the younger, cheaper one. That’s the right decision 10 out of 10 times. I’m just glad that it is also working out for Marc Andre Fleury. He is a very easy guy for whom to root.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

It's funny, but with hindsight being 50/50 as Walt famously opined, the BOLD move prior to the expansion draft would have been to trade Murray for a top flight Defenseman, keep Fleury for the remainder of his contract and go with one of the three top goal prospects they had under their control.
They would have had to expose another good player to the expansion draft, but it would have made all this hand wringing over the defense corps moot.
Not that Murray is chopped liver, he's certainly can be an elite goalie, but he too slumped this year at crunch time. All the talk about his glove side has gone from ridiculous speculation to real concern. I'll give him a pass this year because like Letang, he had some serious issues during the season, not the least of which was losing his dad which can derail anyone from their normal routine.
Can't go back and change anything, and at this point you live with the decisions that were made, but it is fun to play the what if game. I seem to recall that one of the western Canada teams were really hot after Murray, and were dangling a pretty solid D-man in return.

In any event I'm all in for Fleury. I was never a big Neal fan, but that team of high end castoffs is really doing some amazing things in these playoffs!

Hindsight being 50/50...I remember some of the Murray detractors on here saying "they kept the wrong guy". And while I defended and supported Murray, I did admit the really ballsy move would have been to keep Fleury and trade Murray (peak value) to someone like the Blues, Oilers or Flames for a big package of return. The problem is, and it is also one reason why MAF was still here last year in the playoffs, while goalies are very important, it seems like most teams (aside from Philly and the NYI) are fairly set with #1 goalies. I would think the team you are mentioning would have been Calgary offering Dougie Hamilton.

But that would have been too risky. Murray is 23. Most goalies really do not hit their primes until 25. So I think they are set.

 

[WiseAndGlorious]

You don't see Fleury, with his stats and three cups fitting in with that group? Wow!

Not a slam dunk. I think they’ll say he won 3 Cups, but with Sid and Geno and one caddying for Murray. If he wins with Vegas he is likely the Conn Smythe and then it is a done deal.

 

[FreeportPanther]

That would’ve been an insane decision by the Penguins.

Look, I love the Flower as much as anyone and I am rooting hard for Vegas to win the whole thing because of him. How can you not roof for that guy?

However, the Penguins had a younger, cheaper, better performing player coming off back-to-back Stanley Cups while still in his early 20s. It would not have been bold to trade him, it would’ve been straight up stupid.

The "stupidity" would only depend on highly you regarded the three youngsters waiting in the wings.
Murray was not that far removed from being an untested, relatively unknown player when he emerged.
Murray's performance in the two cup runs was great, of course. That skyrocketed his value. Fleury's performance in those two cup runs and his play while Murray was injured weren't chopped liver either.
Murray has been hurt a lot, and the "insiders" probably know the chinks in his armor.
Trading him when one of the goalies had to go would have been a gamble, but depending on the return may have set the club up for a couple of more years of high end success while keeping the corps of stars, which would have included Fleury as he is proving with his current play.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

As for Vegas, I heard a guy describe them very well. I think teams were allowed to keep 8 skaters + 1 goalie on their protection list. So many teams exposed guys entering last year's of contract like James Neal and some others.

So while Vegas had no Crosby's, McDavid's, Ovy's, they also had no guys who really are fringe players. Their roster consists of guys who were #5 thru #10 on all of the NHL rosters. Now the 10th guy on the Canucks is different than the 10th guy on the Penguins or Caps, but still, they pretty much have a roster of guys who are experienced, but not over the hill, who may have been 2nd or 3rd liners, not getting the ice time. But they have no real guys who are AHLers playing up as most expansion teams have.

Add into it a #1 goalie who is really playing his best, and voila. It will be interesting to see in 3 years where Vegas is, but they are legit good.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

The "stupidity" would only depend on highly you regarded the three youngsters waiting in the wings.
Murray was not that far removed from being an untested, relatively unknown player when he emerged.
Murray's performance in the two cup runs was great, of course. That skyrocketed his value. Fleury's performance in those two cup runs and his play while Murray was injured weren't chopped liver either.
Murray has been hurt a lot, and the "insiders" probably know the chinks in his armor.
Trading him when one of the goalies had to go would have been a gamble, but depending on the return may have set the club up for a couple of more years of high end success while keeping the corps of stars, which would have included Fleury as he is proving with his current play.

There’s no reason to put quotes around the word stupidity because that would have been an objectively ridiculous decision.

I don’t care how well regarded the young goaltenders are right now. The odds of them coming up in their early 20s and winning the team back-to-back Stanley Cups is almost nil. We already have that guy!

We have the asset that every team in the league would love to have - a young, proven goaltender.

We’re going to trade that to roll the dice on an 18-year-old Swedish kid or a guy who was basically a back up on his junior team when he was drafted?

That is a completely crazy idea.

I like those two young goaltenders as well and I hated giving up Gustavsson in the Brassard trade. I think he has a real good chance to develop into a very good player for Ottawa.

However, even in a best case scenario he comes up and is basically what Matt Murray already is – a goaltender who can help you win the Stanley Cup.

Why on earth would we do that?

Let me put it another way. If Jim Rutherford did do that people would want his scalp. Again, can you imagine Murray playing in the conference finals with Vegas? Can you imagine how that would’ve been received? People would’ve lost their minds and it would’ve been impossible to blame them.

 

[HOF Coach]

I love MAF guy, but slam dunk HOF? Pump the brakes. The list of goalies that have been voted in since Billy Smith is pretty select: Fuhr, Hasek, Roy, Belfour and soon to be Brodeur.

In addition to his successful career as a Pittsburgh Penguin, if MAF leads AN EXPANSION TEAM to the Stanley Cup Finals in its first year, his induction into the HOF will indeed be slam dunk.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

That’s the biggest problem people make in baseball and hockey. They assume that because young players have success in junior hockey or on the international stage or even in the minor leagues, that will definitely translate to the majors. That’s true probably about 50% of the time...tops.

How many baseball players do we need to talk about to which that applied? That has always been the biggest weakness for Neil Huntington. As a former scout, he is a prospect hoarder and prospects very often don’t pan out as hoped/planned.

It’s the same in hockey. Anyone who has been around long enough can rattle off all the names of guys who were great in Wilkes-Barre or Cleveland or Baltimore but who never did anything in Pittsburgh.

It makes perfect sense. With each level you advance all of the deficiencies in your game become more and more exposed. The very best players are the guys with the fewest deficiencies so they survive. Everyone else fails – even guys who look phenomenal whenever of the competition around them is a step or two or three slower than the competition they face every night in the NHL.

Just to pull an example out of my ass, how about Matt Moulson. He had a pretty good NHL career. However, I’m sure that in juniors and even in the AHL he looked like Mario Lemieux. He had tremendous hands and a great mind for the game. However, he is a slow skater and that was exposed by NHL competition. The probably shortened his career by four or five years.

Robbie brown is probably the best example I can think of. He is the smartest winger to ever play with Lemieux. He knew exactly where to be at all times and recorded a 50 goal season as a result of his intelligence and silky smooth hands.

However, he was a terrible skater and over time that is what forced him out of the NHL. Then he would go down to the AHL and completely dominated because everyone there is a step slower and less instinctive. That allowed all of his assets to immediately rise to the top again. Then he would come back to the NHL and he would again be one of the slower skaters, which completely nullified all of his gifts. He knew exactly where to be but he just couldn’t get there in time.

Now, to Brown’s everlasting credit, he was smart and humble enough to change his game into a checker. That allowed him to make it back to the NHL years later and have a pretty nice career there as a bottom six forward. However, that is more a testament to his humility than anything else. Also, he is now the primary analyst for Edmonton Oilers hockey – which tells you how bright of a guy he is.

 

[FreeportPanther]

There’s no reason to put quotes around the word stupidity because that would have been an objectively ridiculous decision.

I don’t care how well regarded the young goaltenders are right now. The odds of them coming up in their early 20s and winning the team back-to-back Stanley Cups is almost nil. We already have that guy!

We have the asset that every team in the league would love to have - a young, proven goaltender.

We’re going to trade that to roll the dice on an 18-year-old Swedish kid or a guy who was basically a back up on his junior team when he was drafted?

That is a completely crazy idea.

I like those two young goaltenders as well and I hated giving up Gustavsson in the Brassard trade. I think he has a real good chance to develop into a very good player for Ottawa.

However, even in a best case scenario he comes up and is basically what Matt Murray already is – a goaltender who can help you win the Stanley Cup.

Why on earth would we do that?

Let me put it another way. If Jim Rutherford did do that people would want his scalp. Again, can you imagine Murray playing in the conference finals with Vegas? Can you imagine how that would’ve been received? People would’ve lost their minds and it would’ve been impossible to blame them.

How valuable is that young Murray to the team when Sid, Geno, Letang, and Kessel's play diminish due to age?
If you're playing to maximize the NOW, with these guys in their prime, which would have also included Fleury, you surround them with the best you can get.
You are totally diminishing how good Fleury is, or that he was good enough to make at least another cup run especially if the roster was strengthened with the return for Murray.
There is no reason to get all emotional over a speculative situation since what is done is done.
Murray AND Fleury won those two cups unless you've forgotten. Fleury won one on his own, Murray has yet to do that.
To get something, you have to give up something. Murray's youth is an asset, but it also makes him unproven in the long haul. He has some problems in his game, time will tell if they are fixed or magnified. In any event he's the Pens goalie and that won't change.
Your opinion is no more valid than anyone else's regarding what if or what will be.

 

[Jpripper88]

As for Vegas, I heard a guy describe them very well. I think teams were allowed to keep 8 skaters + 1 goalie on their protection list. So many teams exposed guys entering last year's of contract like James Neal and some others.

So while Vegas had no Crosby's, McDavid's, Ovy's, they also had no guys who really are fringe players. Their roster consists of guys who were #5 thru #10 on all of the NHL rosters. Now the 10th guy on the Canucks is different than the 10th guy on the Penguins or Caps, but still, they pretty much have a roster of guys who are experienced, but not over the hill, who may have been 2nd or 3rd liners, not getting the ice time. But they have no real guys who are AHLers playing up as most expansion teams have.

Add into it a #1 goalie who is really playing his best, and voila. It will be interesting to see in 3 years where Vegas is, but they are legit good.

And it gave them two avenues: 1. They compete right away (although never expected to this extent) and it helps the fanbase build more commitment. OR 2. They have several valuable trade pieces which would have been available at the deadline for prospects and draft picks to fill their system.

 

[Dan1911]

"I don't think anyone is defending Letang's play this season"

I would argue someone on here has been consistently defending Letang nonstop throughout this thread ad nauseum.

Any criticism of Letang is immediately answered in long screeds, over and over again.

For all of his brilliant scoring, it is matched with MORE scoring from the other team. Period. Minus-four vs caps. Minus-9 for the season.

I'd rather have a defenseman who never scores but we're a plus-ten when he's on the ice. That means when he's on the ice, we're more likely to be winning. That is good...

When Letang is on the ice, we are more likely to give up a goal than score one. That means he is a liability. That is bad... For the true believers, I look forward to your insane defense of Letang (not really); you are blind in your devotion to a player who is not good anymore: i. do. NOT. get. it.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

How valuable is that young Murray to the team when Sid, Geno, Letang, and Kessel's play diminish due to age?
If you're playing to maximize the NOW, with these guys in their prime, which would have also included Fleury, you surround them with the best you can get.
You are totally diminishing how good Fleury is, or that he was good enough to make at least another cup run especially if the roster was strengthened with the return for Murray.
There is no reason to get all emotional over a speculative situation since what is done is done.
Murray AND Fleury won those two cups unless you've forgotten. Fleury won one on his own, Murray has yet to do that.
To get something, you have to give up something. Murray's youth is an asset, but it also makes him unproven in the long haul. He has some problems in his game, time will tell if they are fixed or magnified. In any event he's the Pens goalie and that won't change.
Your opinion is no more valid than anyone else's regarding what if or what will be.

Murray won the first cup on his own. He didn't share duties, unless you include the 1st game that Zatkoff played.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

And it gave them two avenues: 1. They compete right away (although never expected to this extent) and it helps the fanbase build more commitment. OR 2. They have several valuable trade pieces which would have been available at the deadline for prospects and draft picks to fill their system.

Well I think they went that route for the latter, but ended up having such a good season, they couldn't do that. I definitely think they took guys like Neal, Peron and Sbisa fully expecting to turn them into trade chips at the deadline.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Right, but when both guys were on the team over the past two years, the Penguins’ brain trust concluded that Murray was better than Fleury now. That’s the whole point. Also, any statistical analysis will conclude the same.

We had a guy who was younger, cheaper and was performing better. They were never, ever going to trade that guy. It’s a completely crazy argument.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Right, but when both guys were on the team over the past two years, the Penguins’ brain trust concluded that Murray was better than Fleury now. That’s the whole point. Also, any statistical analysis will conclude the same.

We had a guy who was younger, cheaper and was performing better. They were never, ever going to trade that guy. It’s a completely crazy argument.

Sullivan favors his Wilkes Barre guys. Fleury never had a chance.
I understand why people punk you. It is a speculative discussion over something that is over with. No reason to be such an arrogant prick, unless of course you are just an arrogant prick.

 

[pitt2533]

As for Vegas, I heard a guy describe them very well. I think teams were allowed to keep 8 skaters + 1 goalie on their protection list. So many teams exposed guys entering last year's of contract like James Neal and some others.

So while Vegas had no Crosby's, McDavid's, Ovy's, they also had no guys who really are fringe players. Their roster consists of guys who were #5 thru #10 on all of the NHL rosters. Now the 10th guy on the Canucks is different than the 10th guy on the Penguins or Caps, but still, they pretty much have a roster of guys who are experienced, but not over the hill, who may have been 2nd or 3rd liners, not getting the ice time. But they have no real guys who are AHLers playing up as most expansion teams have.

Add into it a #1 goalie who is really playing his best, and voila. It will be interesting to see in 3 years where Vegas is, but they are legit good.

In addition and you alluded to it, they have MANY guys playing for contracts next season as they are currently in last year of their deals. That often times leads to big performances from players in their contract years.

 

[pitt2533]

Sullivan favors his Wilkes Barre guys. Fleury never had a chance.
I understand why people punk you. It is a speculative discussion over something that is over with. No reason to be such an arrogant prick, unless of course you are just an arrogant prick.

I am not trying to be a jerk or offend you, but any suggestion of trading Murray coming off back to back cup years, 23 years old, cheap contract, outplaying Fleury, is just insane. No GM in the league would have made that decision.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Right, but when both guys were on the team over the past two years, the Penguins’ brain trust concluded that Murray was better than Fleury now. That’s the whole point. Also, any statistical analysis will conclude the same.

We had a guy who was younger, cheaper and was performing better. They were never, ever going to trade that guy. It’s a completely crazy argument.

Sullivan favors his Wilkes Barre guys. Fleury never had a chance.
I understand why people punk you. It is a speculative discussion over something that is over with. No reason to be such an arrogant prick, unless of course you are just an arrogant prick.

First, I apologize if my tone offended you. That was never my intent to piss off anyone.

I was just making the point that trading away a 23-year-old goaltender coming off back-to-back Stanley Cups would NOT have been bold, it would’ve been a stupid decision that would have been RIGHTLY panned locally and throughout the hockey world.

Maybe it would’ve worked out for the best in the end but I highly doubt it. Can you name for me a similar example of a team ever doing anything like that in hockey; because I can’t think of one and I am a bit obsessive about the sport’s history.

Look, I understand that people like Fleury better personally than Murray and I do too. Marc Andre Fleury might be the most likable athlete to ever come through this city and that is saying a mouthful. Also, the fact that he is playing so well has heightened this discussion.

However, this is about hockey and bottom line is that Murray outperformed Fleury in their two years together in the organization. That doesn’t mean that it was easy to let Fleury walk. It’s never easy to let a guy go who has been such an important part of all of your success. However, I highly doubt that it was a very difficult decision.

Finally, as your last point, do you really think I give a single shit if someone “punks me?” I mean really. Come on, man. You are bright enough to know better than that.

For me, I look at forums like this as a very impersonal form of communication. None of us knows each other or really anything about each other. Why anyone would take offense to anything anyone else says is strange to me.

However, what’s really strange is having some guy whom I have never met making up literally 10 or 12 different usernames to try to troll me. I don’t understand that at all? That’s a little creepy.

However, and I can’t emphasize this enough, I don’t mean any harm to anyone when I disagree with their opinions – even when I do so and very strong terms. It is nothing personal or arrogant whatsoever. It’s just a way for me to say that I completely disagree with some relatively minor point or another. That doesn’t mean that I’m right, only that I disagree.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

First, I apologize if my tone offended you. That was never my intent to piss off anyone.

I was just making the point that trading away a 23-year-old goaltender coming off back-to-back Stanley Cups would NOT have been bold, it would’ve been a stupid decision that would have been RIGHTLY panned locally and throughout the hockey world.

Maybe it would’ve worked out for the best in the end but I highly doubt it. Can you name for me a similar example of a team ever doing anything like that in hockey; because I can’t think of one and I am a bit obsessive about the sport’s history.

Look, I understand that people like Fleury better personally than Murray and I do too. Marc Andre Fleury might be the most likable athlete to ever come through this city and that is saying a mouthful. Also, the fact that he is playing so well has heightened this discussion.

However, this is about hockey and bottom line is that Murray outperformed Fleury in their two years together in the organization. That doesn’t mean that it was easy to let Fleury walk. It’s never easy to let a guy go who has been such an important part of all of your success. However, I highly doubt that it was a very difficult decision.

Finally, as your last point, do you really think I give a single shit if someone “punks me?” I mean really. Come on, man. You are bright enough to know better than that.

For me, I look at forums like this as a very impersonal form of communication. None of us knows each other or really anything about each other. Why anyone would take offense to anything anyone else says is strange to me.

However, what’s really strange is having some guy whom I have never met making up literally 10 or 12 different usernames to try to troll me. I don’t understand that at all? That’s a little creepy.

However, and I can’t emphasize this enough, I don’t mean any harm to anyone when I disagree with their opinions – even when I do so and very strong terms. It is nothing personal or arrogant whatsoever. It’s just a way for me to say that I completely disagree with some relatively minor point or another. That doesn’t mean that I’m right, only that I disagree.

I am not advocating or monday morning QB'ng this. And I have been as vocal as any in defending Murray to a weird lot of people who seem to want him to fail for whatever reason. But I did acknowledge that it would have been ballsy of Rutherford to keep Fleury and trade Murray. On the surface, yeah that would be impossible. It was Murray in net when the last two cups were hoisted. It is Murray who is 10 years younger. And it is Murray who is cheaper. BUT.....it was also Murray who could have commanded a king's ransom in return. So if you step back, it would not have been completely insane. Insane yes, but not completely insane. And now when you add into it the obvious evidence of this season, and MAF's play, it looks even less insane, because the window is really 2-3 more years.

Again, not saying Rutherford was wrong, he made the right move, the only move he really could have made. But...if he would have done that, now with the benefit of hindsight, likely the Pens are still playing and he looks brilliant.

 

[goalieman]

"I don't think anyone is defending Letang's play this season"

I would argue someone on here has been consistently defending Letang nonstop throughout this thread ad nauseum.

Any criticism of Letang is immediately answered in long screeds, over and over again.

For all of his brilliant scoring, it is matched with MORE scoring from the other team. Period. Minus-four vs caps. Minus-9 for the season.

I'd rather have a defenseman who never scores but we're a plus-ten when he's on the ice. That means when he's on the ice, we're more likely to be winning. That is good...

When Letang is on the ice, we are more likely to give up a goal than score one. That means he is a liability. That is bad... For the true believers, I look forward to your insane defense of Letang (not really); you are blind in your devotion to a player who is not good anymore: i. do. NOT. get. it.

- I totally agree with you that Letang had a bad year (even the poster you are saying defends Letang is saying that).

- I disagree with you that Letang can't be better next season (and I don't know if he will or will not be better) as there is a plausible explanation in part for his bad year, that being him undergoing major neck surgery 4/17, not being cleared to skate at all until 7/17 and not being cleared for contact until the exhibition season, thus not being in top condition nor being able to work on his game.

- This off season he will have more time for his neck to heal, to do conditioning on and off ice, and work on his game ..... I think there is a reasonable chance that he will be better next season and if so, good; if not, I expect he will be traded.

- We already need more talent and depth on defense and letting Letang go before next season probably is not going to fix that and may worsen the situation ..... again, if another team makes us a really good offer for Letang that will help the Pens, then I would not be against trading him now.

- I'm interested, if you were the Pens GM, what would you do with Letang.

 

[Dan1911]

Keeping Murray was the right call. He was amazing and brought us 2 cups w fleury in a supporting role. This year he was injured, his dad died, and his defensemen sucked. Ill give him a mulligan. Fluery is amazing this year. Good for him. Both sides won. Nothing to regret. A divorce where both sides are better off. Win-win.

 

[goalieman]

Yeah, I agreed with protecting Murray and exposing Fleury in the expansion draft as most did ..... Murray outplayed Fleury the two years they were together, especially the 2nd year (2016-2017), Murray is 10 years younger and ~45% cheaper ...... protecting Murray was the logical and best decision at the time ...... how it works out in the long run will be determined over time but Rutherford can't make decisions in retrospect ...... he made the right decision at the time IMO.

 

[pittbb80]

Have to agree that keeping Murray was the best decision at the time and may still be the best decision.

Those that say they should have kept Murray are using the benfit of knowing he'd have a great season this year. Going into this year, if you're being honest, I don't think anyone would have predicted hed have a great a year as he had. I'd add............how much of his great year was simply due to a change of scenery..........the pressure was off in Vegas.......how do we know Hed have performed as well in the Burgh with the expectation of winning a third cup People clamoring for Fleury now forget MAF's injuries and inconsistent play opened the Door for Murray to take hold of the position.

More importantly, its probably wise to see how Murray and MAF play of the next few years to judge whether or not the Pens made the right decision . IF Murray has a great year next year and MAF comes back to earth........keeping Murray will look like a great move..........

As an aside I though the comparison between Letang and Troy P was great.

 

[PipersPitt]

This reminds me a lot of a debate I had for years with a friend of mine regarding Troy Polamalu. My buddy is also a huge Steelers fan and he just hated No. 43.

If you asked him right now who was the most overrated player in NFL history he would immediately blurt out the name Troy Polamalu.

My buddy really thought Polamalu was a liability to the Steelers’ defense over the years because he was always out of position and regularly following his instincts rather than the structure of the defense.

For many, many years, during every Steelers game, every single time the defense would surrender a touchdown, I would get a text from him blaming it all on the Steelers’ strong safety. To be perfectly honest, he was often right.

However, he was also missing the bigger picture. Polamalu was prone to dumb mistakes and he could be a liability in pass coverage. However, he was also a tremendous asset to that defense because he was so explosive and instinctive and it made the defense extraordinarily unpredictable, which in turn helped create indecision on the part of the opposing offenses, which made the defense better.

However, if you are just judging Polamalu through the narrow lens of pass coverage responsibilities them yes, he at times looked like a horrible player.

I think that is extraordinarily analogous to what we have with Letang and the Penguins. If you are only judging him based solely on his mistakes then of course he’s going to come out on the wrong side of any analysis. However, if you evaluate his play with a broader and more comprehensive lens, it’s very clear that he has long been a unique weapon for the Pittsburgh Penguins and an ENORMOUS reason for the team’s success over the past decade.

letang the hockey player is not in the same stratosphere as polamalu the football player, your buddy is a dope

we get it you love letang, despite the team winning without him

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I actually am afraid letang’s value will only continue to drop.
He’s a sunk cost

 

[PipersPitt]

he has no trade value

7 million a year for a 30 year old with a long injury history, extremely inconsistent play, and a stroke

 

[Jakey_John]

I actually am afraid letang’s value will only continue to drop.
He’s a sunk cost

Not much Value in a Brain Dead Defensman.. We won the Cup last year because he was injured, no way we win with him in the Lineup..

he has no trade value

7 million a year for a 30 year old with a long injury history, extremely inconsistent play, and a stroke

He also scored the GWG for the Stanley Cup in 2016 and half of the defensive corps from last year is gone but it was all Letang’s fault.

 

[Jakey_John]

Sorry.. 2016 was a lifetime ago and has ZERO to do with the Letang as of today.. he has Multiple Strokes every game with the Puck..

Except it is less than 2 calendar years. Your life must be really boring if it seems that long ago to you.

 

[HOF Coach]

 

[Dan1911]

Except it is less than 2 calendar years. Your life must be really boring if it seems that long ago to you.

You know youve lost the argument when the ad hominems fly.

 

[BFo8]

I can’t see how you can really question the Pens keeping Murray over Fleury, was the only logical move to make.

From a Vegas perspective though they would’ve rather had Fleury if it was a choice between the two. Being a new franchise there’s more to it than what a players value is on the ice, and Vegas had targeted Fleury from the start.

MAF arrived in Vegas months before the start of the year and immediately started doing PR and goodwill work in the community. From meeting with booster groups to working in the inner city to showing up all over local tv and radio the guy was literally everywhere. Long before the first puck had dropped he had become the face of the franchise. Team owner Bill Foley publicly said that he thought Fleury would be as valuable to the team off the ice as much as he would be on the ice.

Murray doesn’t have that kind of charisma, he will be the better asset in the long run, but Vegas needed a personality like MAF to kickstart their franchise.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I can’t see how you can really question the Pens keeping Murray over Fleury, was the only logical move to make.

From a Vegas perspective though they would’ve rather had Fleury if it was a choice between the two. Being a new franchise there’s more to it than what a players value is on the ice, and Vegas had targeted Fleury from the start.

MAF arrived in Vegas months before the start of the year and immediately started doing PR and goodwill work in the community. From meeting with booster groups to working in the inner city to showing up all over local tv and radio the guy was literally everywhere. Long before the first puck had dropped he had become the face of the franchise. Team owner Bill Foley publicly said that he thought Fleury would be as valuable to the team off the ice as much as he would be on the ice.

Murray doesn’t have that kind of charisma, he will be the better asset in the long run, but Vegas needed a personality like MAF to kickstart their franchise.

Yeah amazing how Fleury embraced it and ran with it. And he certainly is being rewarded with it and is rewarding Vegas with his play. Let's face it, right now he is the best goalie in the world. That's amazing. I laugh, literally out loud, at the "Carey Price is the best goalie in the world" because I am trying to figure out the last time he was really relevant?

Still, Matt Murray has a chance to be this same, he is 23. Fleury has reached his peak as a 33 year old.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Yeah amazing how Fleury embraced it and ran with it. And he certainly is being rewarded with it and is rewarding Vegas with his play. Let's face it, right now he is the best goalie in the world. That's amazing. I laugh, literally out loud, at the "Carey Price is the best goalie in the world" because I am trying to figure out the last time he was really relevant?

Still, Matt Murray has a chance to be this same, he is 23. Fleury has reached his peak as a 33 year old.

Regained his peak

Fleury is the #1 reason they won the first cup.
Hopefully Murray regains form.

One thing for sure- if his regular season is a struggle- I don’t want to here he’s different in the playoffs.

If he’s good in the regular season I’ll be confident he’s back

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Regained his peak

Fleury is the #1 reason they won the first cup.
Hopefully Murray regains form.

One thing for sure- if his regular season is a struggle- I don’t want to here he’s different in the playoffs.

You root for him to fail don't you? Your obsession with him is amazing. Murray is the #1 reason they won the second cup. His numbers that playoff run were better than Fleury's in 2009. And you know, back to back shut outs to finish out the 3rd cup. Somehow fans forget that.

He was not that good this year, but with Letang's subpar play, Malkin's and Kessel's injuries, they weren't going to win this year anyways. Give the kid a pass. My god.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

You root for him to fail don't you? Your obsession with him is amazing. Murray is the #1 reason they won the second cup. His numbers that playoff run were better than Fleury's in 2009. And you know, back to back shut outs to finish out the 3rd cup. Somehow fans forget that.

He was not that good this year, but with Letang's subpar play, Malkin's and Kessel's injuries, they weren't going to win this year anyways. Give the kid a pass. My god.

Reread my addendum.

What pass?
He’s a pro and our starting goalie.
He was not good all season and it carried over the the playoffs.

Hockey is a weak link sport.

If he plays well next season I’ll be confident going into the playoffs in him.

I simply call it like I see it.