Exactly. Those "education buildings" can be replaced with newer buildings on the Pitt Campus. Also, I am wondering since it would bother you to "build a stadium that would only be used a few times a year", if you felt the same way about Pitt's latest adventure Victory Heights?
Hillman Library 1st floor Renovations....getting slammed
- Thread starter CrazyPaco
- Start date
I don't get itNew sculpture installed outside of Hillman!
edit: nvm, I must have missed the week the critical reception of this was the late night fodder
So no difference at all between a year round facility that houses several sports and a football stadium?
Move Hillman library services to the Carnegie Library and pay rent of over $1 million per year to use it. No upkeep costs!
There. Problem solved!
There. Problem solved!
First, an on-campus stadium is never going to be built in the next 50 years or more, if ever. It's not economically or logistically feasible.
Regarding Victory Heights, won't that be used more than a few times a year with all of the sports played there over longer seasons? I don't know because I haven't been paying too much attention to it. I'd rather Pitt put the money into research, education and things that, you know, help people. But I know athletics is a part of Pitt and must be funded. I'm OK with that.
The debate (and yes, in some architectural circles there now seems to be an actual debate) of the merits of brutalist architecture is interesting. It appears to have been gaining somewhat of a cult following.
It seems, for all architectural styles, there is a period where they are super trendy and everyone is doing it, and then they fall out of fashion introducing a period where the structures get old and deemed to be horribly outdated and decisions are made to replace them with the style du jour. Usually, after the examples of whatever style get more rare, there is a revival and celebration of the style. Victorian...for example.
For brutalism, there has certainly been a trend in the recent past to take those structures down. For instance, there is a push to remove, instead of renovate, the FBI building in downtown DC. But there also seems to be somewhat of a renewed appreciation for brutalism that is bubbling up since the style isn't as ubiquitous as it used to be...perhaps making them stand out.
A Pitt example could be the Towers...the outside of them...not talking about the room size, functionality, etc.... and compare them to the look of the newest dorms...Nordenburg Hall, Panther Hall, Ivis Hall. Which are more interesting, visually? And yes, Pitt is planning on renovating the towers (combining rooms to make them bigger), not replacing them, as they certainly are a campus landmark. And as I mentioned previously, what is different about Pitt's brutalist buildings in the "professional quadrangle" (Posvar, David Lawrence, Hillman) is that they're all clad with limestone instead of just exposed concrete as would be typical for classic brualist structures. So with that said, is there going to be regret 50 years from now about what Pitt is doing to the outside facade of some of these buildings and a desire to restore them to the original intent of the architects (as is now going on with the William Pitt Union... perhaps a whole different thread)? Who knows?
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What is even less likely than an on-campus stadium is Pitt replacing the largest buildings on campus (Posvar is larger square footage than the Cathedral) that they've been spending millions and millions on to update. These buildings are likely guaranteed another 40 years, at which point people may be talking about historical designations for them.
The funny and ironic thing is that when I first went to Pitt in Fall of 1977 people were saying the same thing about the entirety of the Hillman, David Lawrence and Posvar complex.
I have come around on brutalism. It is funny how that works, it obviously wasn't deliberate on my part. But it can have a charm.
I was one of those saying the new renovations are sterile. I prefer a warmer interior. This has too much of an Instagram influencer refinishing their kitchen vibe.
I was one of those saying the new renovations are sterile. I prefer a warmer interior. This has too much of an Instagram influencer refinishing their kitchen vibe.
Which is why Pitt would have removed them before the expensive renovations. Everyone knows they aren't going anywhere, now.
Posvar (will always Forbes Quad to me) is valuable space, but will always be hideous. Hillman had some dignity, more out than in. DL at least is somewhat interesting in its roundness. The Law Building, ugh. Batting about .235 with the Forbes Field replacements.
It's also why they weren't ever going to remove them. For 20 years they've only talked about the need to add space to these buildings as Pitt has only continued to grow. Posvar is currently scheduled to be expanded out the back the whole way to South Bouquet.
You just can't replace that much square footage housing that many academic departments and classroom space because there isn't a physical location to move that much square footage to in Oakland. You'd pretty much need to put any replacements right on top of the same footprint, but there isn't even enough swing space available to launch such a project.
There have been two thoughts previously about Hillman. When they first acquired the Masonic Temple (now Alumni Hall) in the 90s, they considered turning it into the main library building. If you picture it, the main ballroom and balcony, nd some of the other floors actually look like they could be library spaces. That plan was scrapped, obviously. I don't know why, but it could have to do with the weight of books, etc, structurally. There was also some talk (mostly idle talk I think and not actually seriously considered by the school) to replace Hillman entirely with something else (something more fitting in with the architecture of the Cathedral). But clearly, they settled on the renovation and expansion (the expansion has been talked about for at least a decade or more).
Here's the other thing that people don't realize, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania actually holds the deed on the Hillman Library property.
Well said, Paco. If art's intent is to elicit a response, brutalism is art. Also, I believe you mentioned in the past that PITT's collection of brutalist structures is notable in architectural circles. I'd much rather have had that rendering of an entirely gothic campus that has been published here before. A unifying theme in architecture on campus, IMHO, is better than a collection of collections.
The Quad is also an amazing waste of space. How much of that building is simply vacant hallway and concourse?
The 60s weren't kind to many universities. Unfortunately, it is when Pitt became public and major growth and building was initiated. Such disastrously hideous things were done such as the Space Research Coordination Center being fused onto the main front entrance of Thaw Hall, obliterating the primary greek-revival features of the main entrance. Others less than "instant classics" were Benedum Hall, Chevron, the Victoria Building, Posvar, Barco, David Lawrence.
You had, essentially, one instant classic building put up during this period: the Frick Fine Arts Building. And it only was the way it was because Helen Frick, who paid for it, demanded it be done in an Italian Renaissance style.
Well yes, I think almost anyone, if they could start Pitt's campus over, would take the Cathedral of Learning and build a unifying theme of architecture around that. You had Heinz, Stephen Foster, and Clapp Hall (which didn't not maintain the detailing that would have been originally intended), and then gothic revival stopped as the money ran out and styles changed. Unfortunately though, now what you have is a collection of collections, and a very impressive collection of collections at that (I really can't think of a university that has a more impressive collection of buildings...better campus or unifying look, but not buildings inside and out), so take what makes you unique and make the best of it.
Don’t forget about the IS building. Someone told me once it was supposed to look like the lunar lander. I wasn’t buying it.
Chevron is the ugliest, inside and out.
Pitt didn't build the IS building, they just purchased it after it was already built.
From mid-century utilitarian and minimalist to contemporary utilitarian and minimalist. Zero sum transaction-they're both cheap looking and bad.Additional images of renovation:
Buddy -
When is the last time you’ve been to Oakland ?
Where are those building going ?
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Pitt student studying at the "new" Hillman Library.
Correct. Of all the "several sports" that you brought up, none of them will ever generate enough money to pay for the building of Victory Heights. In fact, if we added up the amount of money generated by all of them over the next 50 years, it still would not come close to paying for the construction of the complex. Also, a new stadium for football could also be used as the home for the Pitt Track and Field program, the home of the Pitt Band.
They should have saved their money rather than wasting it on that. Someone robbed then for millions to make it worse.
Come on. It won’t be long Until there are gum wads under the tables. A carved initial here or there. Spilled coffee on the floor. Overflowing garbage cans.
Yep. That’s when it will dawn on someone “making everything white and laminate might have been a questionable decision”. But it looked so good in the PowerPoint…
Maybe that is why the Bush have been batting .235 as a team for a quarter century. The curse of Forbes Quadrangle.
The new and the old both have horrid color palettes. The new one is closer to not being a trainwreck. Walls and pillars blue (not the tiled portion), desk gold, problem solved. Right now it's just a nasty blues completely overwhelmed by white
Scaife Hall addition/renovations (are these attractive? Do they visually say top 10 med school?):
source: http://www.utimes.pitt.edu/news/inside-scaife-hall
source: http://www.utimes.pitt.edu/news/inside-scaife-hall
Pitt has some forthcoming new construction projects: the Computer Science building on the Syria Mosque lot and new residence halls on the hillside to same just two. Both are located in or adjacent to the Schenley Farms Historic District.
Nordenberg Hall was the last residence hall built. It is surrounded by historic buildings and directly across Soldier's & Sailors from the Pittsburgh Athlethic Club. At best, it is unremarkable and non-offensive.
Look at what other universities have built recently....buildings to be enhance their campuses for generations, and I cringe at what cheap looking crap might be on the way at Pitt that will feel outdated in 10 years (or less).
Duke's Karsh Alumni Center (2020):
Vanderbilt's West Tower dorms and classrooms (2018):
It's not all super rich schools. Catholic University's new dining hall (2022):
Many more examples of colleges building things that are timeless and memorable. I'd argue that Pitt hasn't built a building of timeless substance since 1965...the Frick Fine Arts building... so built only because Helen Frick insisted on the design.
To be fair, Pitt has done some really well regarded restoration projects on acquired buildings, like Alumni Hall (Masonic Temple) and the O'Hara Street Student Center (Concordia Club). Ironically, it seems to want to knock down the latter historic building in what I'd argue would be a move that only a moron would suggest.
What will it enhance the campus, university and neighborhood with next? What will it provide to complement the existing historic structures? Hopefully better than recent precedent.
Nordenberg Hall was the last residence hall built. It is surrounded by historic buildings and directly across Soldier's & Sailors from the Pittsburgh Athlethic Club. At best, it is unremarkable and non-offensive.
Look at what other universities have built recently....buildings to be enhance their campuses for generations, and I cringe at what cheap looking crap might be on the way at Pitt that will feel outdated in 10 years (or less).
Duke's Karsh Alumni Center (2020):
Vanderbilt's West Tower dorms and classrooms (2018):
It's not all super rich schools. Catholic University's new dining hall (2022):
Many more examples of colleges building things that are timeless and memorable. I'd argue that Pitt hasn't built a building of timeless substance since 1965...the Frick Fine Arts building... so built only because Helen Frick insisted on the design.
To be fair, Pitt has done some really well regarded restoration projects on acquired buildings, like Alumni Hall (Masonic Temple) and the O'Hara Street Student Center (Concordia Club). Ironically, it seems to want to knock down the latter historic building in what I'd argue would be a move that only a moron would suggest.
What will it enhance the campus, university and neighborhood with next? What will it provide to complement the existing historic structures? Hopefully better than recent precedent.
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There’s nothing wrong with this at all. It’s crisp, clean, light, bright. It looks like what you would see in a newly-constructed hospital.Scaife Hall addition/renovations (are these attractive? Do they visually say top 10 med school?):
source: http://www.utimes.pitt.edu/news/inside-scaife-hall
I have to say that in 8 years at Pitt, I never once studied at Hillman. I studied mostly at Scaife Hall in the food court area or in classrooms in Forbes Quad.
Agreed. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
Well it wasn’t broke and they made it broker.
Except it isn't a hospital. It's a school where students will be spending a ton of time.
For comparison, here's Harvard's 2019 health library renovation and their 2021 med school rennovation.
Not afraid to use wood to create warmer, more inviting spaces.
USC med school (2017)....not just florescent track lighting:
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I'm trying to figure out what is going on in that auditorium. Maybe allows to split the space? But in the back section would be like last row of upper deck for a stadium concert.Scaife Hall addition/renovations (are these attractive? Do they visually say top 10 med school?):
source: http://www.utimes.pitt.edu/news/inside-scaife-hall
