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OT: The mess that is the Penguins

Looking at the film of the goals given up by Murray in Game 5 here are my thoughts ......

Goal #1- Shot from mid-ice outside the top of the circles .... congestion in the low slot by 4 players in front of Murray ...... Murray was in excellent position ..... not sure if he saw the puck off the shooters stick but it looked like he picked it up in time to make an attempted glove save but missed it over his glove hand ..... thought he could have made the save but depends to some degree when he actually saw the puck on the shot.

Goal #2- Shot from the high slot which deflected straight down off Hornqvist's stick/hand ...... Murray again was in good position and appropriately butterflied but left the 5 hole a little bit open and the deflected puck bounced through the 5 hole ..... should have had the 5 hole closed and made the save.

Goal #3- Defense left Murray high and dry by inexplicably giving up a breakaway to Kutnetsov ..... Murray was in good position when Kutnetsov got to the left hash marks, but when Kutnetsov turned it to the backhand and into the middle of the low crease, Murray got behind on the play, opened the 5 hole, and Kutnetsov slid it through the 5 hole into the net ..... it was a high danger shot situation for the goalie and a very tough save play and his D-men put him in that situation ....... but when Kutnetsov turned it over to the backhand, Murray needed to move about 2 feet over and one foot out to be in position to make the save and actually he would have had an excellent chance for a poke check (which I thought would have been his best option)...... however, instead of moving over, Murray went down with his left pad, got behind on the play, opened the 5 hole and didn't make the save ...... even when he got behind on the play and opened the 5 hole, he still may have been able to make the save if he would have immediately gone paddle down with his stick, in fact, the film shows he eventually tried to go paddle down but too late as the puck was already going through his legs.....really tough play for the goalie but thought he may have played it a little differently.

Goal #4- I think it was poster, "sjerzpitt2", who said Murray overplayed it and he is correct ...... Ovechkin went down the right wing all the way to about one foot from the goal line before he passed it to Vrana in the low slot for the winning goal ..... Murray was 2-3 feet outside the post squared up to Ovechkin ..... where should he have been on a bad angle position of the puck near the goal line ? .... on the post, of course, with his left skate on the near post in that situation and right leg in the crease ..... in that position, he would have been in great position to stop a bad angle shot by Ovechkin and when Ovechkin passed it into the slot, Murray would have been in a much better position to push over and out to make the save on Vrana...... where he was, so far outside the post, he had no chance to turn and push back toward the puck/Vrana and really no chance to make the save.

Goals #5 and 6 were open netters.

Just my thoughts.

1) Carlson's shot was a rocket and beats anyone.
2) Bad bounce but Muzz has to keep his 5 hole closed.
3) Sometimes you have to make a big save in that situation. Murray didn't.
4) Murray admitted he over played this and should have prevented the pass.

Something is off. While Murray is not as athletic as Fleury he always had more positioning and sound. He seems just a bit off in his positioning, including making himself too small at times exposing the top of the net, especially glove side. Again, he is 23, most goalies don't start really hitting their prime until they are 25.

That being said, if he isn't better.......the Pens are golfing this week.
 
Some thoughts on morning of Game 6.

-Murray not good enough. He has been inconsistent and average. Needs to be better if they have any chance of winning games 6 and 7.
-Letang with 2 absolutely costly plays resulting in goals 3 and 4. He has so much talent but he absolutely goes brain dead for stretches. Very frustrating. He needs to be better in Game 6 and Game 7 for Pens to have a chance.
- Pens controlled play for much of game and could and probably should have won Game 5. That is a game that feels like they gave it away after taking a 3-2 lead.
-I am not counting this team out. They have been through adversity before winning back to back Cups. They can win the next 2 in order to move on. Win tonight and Game 7 becomes very interesting. Washington aholes will pucker up but that is getting ahead of ourselves. Just win game 6.
-In addition to Kessel and Brassard.... Big game Bryan Rust has totally disappeared. Hopefully he snaps his funk.
-Secondary scoring is still non existent.
 
1) Carlson's shot was a rocket and beats anyone.
2) Bad bounce but Muzz has to keep his 5 hole closed.
3) Sometimes you have to make a big save in that situation. Murray didn't.
4) Murray admitted he over played this and should have prevented the pass.

Something is off. While Murray is not as athletic as Fleury he always had more positioning and sound. He seems just a bit off in his positioning, including making himself too small at times exposing the top of the net, especially glove side. Again, he is 23, most goalies don't start really hitting their prime until they are 25.

That being said, if he isn't better.......the Pens are golfing this week.

The 1st goal was the one that was actually harder to save then it looked during the game. Murray was in perfect position and if there was no congestion in front of him and he saw it all the way, it should have been a relatively easy save ..... there were 4 players in the low slot and I don't think he saw it off the shooters stick but picked it up mid way or closer and it got by his weak area, glove side high..... it was a bullet and a harder save then it looked because of the partial screen.

Regarding the 3rd goal, I agree that you hope your goalie can make the big save in that situation but it was a high danger shot and a very tough save chance .... if he would have played it as I suggested, his chances of a save on that play would have gone up.
 
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If the Pens lose, and with Vegas's and MAF's success, no doubt there will be more catcalls out there and criticism of Murray.

I would ask these same people, from 2010-2015, if Fleury played like this, likely we would be talking about 5 time Stanley Cup Champion when referring to him, Sid, Geno, Letang.......
 
Remember no team has won three Stanley Cups in a row in the current playoff format, four rounds of best 4 out of 7 series. The early 80's Islanders won four in a row but the first round was best 3 out of 5, the late 70's Canadians won four in a row but the playoffs only had 12 teams and the Habs got a first round bye all four years.
 
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If the Pens lose, and with Vegas's and MAF's success, no doubt there will be more catcalls out there and criticism of Murray.

I would ask these same people, from 2010-2015, if Fleury played like this, likely we would be talking about 5 time Stanley Cup Champion when referring to him, Sid, Geno, Letang.......

Agree... It is totally insane to question the decision of Murray versus Fleury. Totally insane.

I love Fleury. Hated seeing him have to go but the reality was they couldn't keep both. It wasn't possible. And Murray outplayed him during the last two cup runs although Fleury cleary played a big part in last years run while Murray was hurt to start playoffs.

And as you said, Fleury's post season struggles were very real for that time frame you stated. Anyone arguing otherwise did not watch the same post seasons I did.

Last year at this time, this was an absolute no brainer of a decision with Murray outplaying Fleury, Murray being 8 years younger, and Murray also being cheaper towards the Cap.
 
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If the Pens lose, and with Vegas's and MAF's success, no doubt there will be more catcalls out there and criticism of Murray.

I would ask these same people, from 2010-2015, if Fleury played like this, likely we would be talking about 5 time Stanley Cup Champion when referring to him, Sid, Geno, Letang.......

I too hated to see Fleury go but fully supported the Pens decision to protect Murray in the expansion draft.
 
Agree... It is totally insane to question the decision of Murray versus Fleury. Totally insane.

I love Fleury. Hated seeing him have to go but the reality was they couldn't keep both. It wasn't possible. And Murray outplayed him during the last two cup runs although Fleury cleary played a big part in last years run while Murray was hurt to start playoffs.

And as you said, Fleury's post season struggles were very real for that time frame you stated. Anyone arguing otherwise did not watch the same post seasons I did.

Last year at this time, this was an absolute no brainer of a decision with Murray outplaying Fleury, Murray being 8 years younger, and Murray also being cheaper towards the Cap.
The problem this year is the Pens sink or swim with Murray, no matter how he plays. With the departure of Fleury, there is no viable backup to go to in the playoffs. Washington made a change back to Holtby after two losses in the Columbus series, and he has been lights out every since.
The Pens have to such option. Last year, when Murray got hurt, Fleury came in and won 2 series. The year before when Fleury was hurt, Murray filled in admirably.
Now, the backup is a kid who has never played in the playoffs. This is a precarious situation and the only way you can put this kid in is if Murray is incompaciated in some fashion, otherwise it is a fool's errand.
The expansion draft really hurt the Pens depth at the most crucial position. They went from the strongest hand in the league to the weakest in the playoffs in goal.
Since there are no other options, the scoring and overall defense HAS to step it up until Murray gets it together and starts playing lights out again.
Perhaps his head isn't right, he fairly recently lost his dad, and he had late season concussion issues so who knows. Playing goal is very much a mental as well as a skill endeavor. A brief lapse in concentration can give up a goal.

That said, good for Fleury! He was always a first class act and team mate here and his success should be celebrated.
 
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The problem this year is the Pens sink or swim with Murray, no matter how he plays. With the departure of Fleury, there is no viable backup to go to in the playoffs. Washington made a change back to Holtby after two losses in the Columbus series, and he has been lights out every since.
The Pens have to such option. Last year, when Murray got hurt, Fleury came in and won 2 series. The year before when Fleury was hurt, Murray filled in admirably.
Now, the backup is a kid who has never played in the playoffs. This is a precarious situation and the only way you can put this kid in is if Murray is incompaciated in some fashion, otherwise it is a fool's errand.
The expansion draft really hurt the Pens depth at the most crucial position. They went from the strongest hand in the league to the weakest in the playoffs in goal.
Since there are no other options, the scoring and overall defense HAS to step it up until Murray gets it together and starts playing lights out again.
Perhaps his head isn't right, he fairly recently lost his dad, and he had late season concussion issues so who knows. Playing goal is very much a mental as well as a skill endeavor. A brief lapse in concentration can give up a goal.

That said, good for Fleury! He was always a first class act and team mate here and his success should be celebrated.

Agree totally all the way around. If there is any criticism it is not really addressing the back up position. They tried doing that with Niemi but he sucks at this point in his career and that was a total disaster.
 
There will be a lot of revisionist history being talked about if the Pens bow out this round and Vegas keeps going, but anyone who really pays attention knows that’s Murray does not have a strong defensive effort in front of him. The D pinch often and the forwards don’t back check well enough. It’s happened all season. Murray isn’t at his best, but he is still far from the problem in my opinion.

The decision to let MAF go in the expansion draft was the right one and everyone in the hockey world knew it had to play out like that. The Pens had zero cap room after last year and the expansion rules made it impossible to keep both.

I don’t really see the value in comparing the two. Keeping Murray was the only option, not to mention could you imagine the Pens letting a 22-year old, back-to-back Cup winning goalie just walk?
 
There will be a lot of revisionist history being talked about if the Pens bow out this round and Vegas keeps going, but anyone who really pays attention knows that’s Murray does not have a strong defensive effort in front of him. The D pinch often and the forwards don’t back check well enough. It’s happened all season. Murray isn’t at his best, but he is still far from the problem in my opinion.

The decision to let MAF go in the expansion draft was the right one and everyone in the hockey world knew it had to play out like that. The Pens had zero cap room after last year and the expansion rules made it impossible to keep both.

I don’t really see the value in comparing the two. Keeping Murray was the only option, not to mention could you imagine the Pens letting a 22-year old, back-to-back Cup winning goalie just walk?

Well no way were they going to expose Murray to the expansion draft. But he could have commanded a king's ransom in a trade, where for whatever reason MAF didn't. Look, there is alot of revisionist history going on with MAF. The truth is, he wasn't really that highly regarded anymore. If so, teams would have lined up to call Rutherford for his services. Credit to MAF for taking this challenge, being motivated and being really still in great shape and athletic for his age. But my god, there are alot of people rewriting history. I actually saw more than one post in some threads on the Athletic or DK on Sports, where people actually said "Fleury always played well and won the big games, Murray seems to shrink with the big games". Think about that. Did the Pens shut out Nashville back to back because MAF was stellar from the bench? Did the Pens come back from 3-2 series deficit because MAF cheered on Murray from the bench? This stuff is getting insane.

It almost makes me root against Fleury to shut these morons up.
 
There will be a lot of revisionist history being talked about if the Pens bow out this round and Vegas keeps going, but anyone who really pays attention knows that’s Murray does not have a strong defensive effort in front of him. The D pinch often and the forwards don’t back check well enough. It’s happened all season. Murray isn’t at his best, but he is still far from the problem in my opinion.

The decision to let MAF go in the expansion draft was the right one and everyone in the hockey world knew it had to play out like that. The Pens had zero cap room after last year and the expansion rules made it impossible to keep both.

I don’t really see the value in comparing the two. Keeping Murray was the only option, not to mention could you imagine the Pens letting a 22-year old, back-to-back Cup winning goalie just walk?
You won't need revisionist history, plain old history will do.
If it weren't for the expansion draft, the Pens may still have had both Fleury and Murray on the roster. The franchise has a window for winning it all with the amazing tandem of Crosby and Malkin. That window will soon close, if it isn't closing already. The franchise would have done everything to squeeze as much out of that window as possible, and that would have included keeping both goalies, or trading one for a much better package to help the team NOW.
The expansion draft forced their hand and stole a valuable trading chip from them. Murray was kind of shaky all year. The GM conceded that point by the major move he made at the deadline. He traded an important defensive piece for what he hoped would be a piece to enhance scoring, a third line center. Odd to weaken the thing that may have helped Murray the most, but obviously feeling the Pens would need to outscore other teams significantly to win. Like 5+ goals /game.
It seemed to have backfired on two levels, the defense is noticeably weaker, and the offense hasn't expanded.
Also, as someone mentioned above, the franchise failed to secure a steady backup to Murray. They were OK with the two rookie goalies, who showed flashes in the regular season, but are untested in the playoffs. Therefore, when Murray gets funky, there is no other option.
It was completely puzzling that Rutherford didn't add to the defensive corps at the deadline. Everyone expected a move similar to the past two runs where he added a solid defenseman or two to bolster the blue line. This year, they got nothing and gave up Cole as a throw in that the receiving club promptly flipped to Columbus.
Brassard has been been pretty disappointing, and the Kessel homerun from two years ago is either hurt or his shorts are too tight!
The Pens roster is plenty good enough to win these next two games against the Caps. You don't write off a team with Crosby and Malkin who have risen to the occasion time after time. Sullivan is also a cool head under pressure. Contrast that with the playoff pedigree of Ovechkin and Trotts and how this is set up. Win in Pittsburgh and take your chances in game 7.
The next series will be the Pens Waterloo if they prevail. If they pull this off, and go on and defeat the Lightning it will be bigger than the Miracle on Ice!
Can you imagine the ratings for a Penguin/Golden Knights series? Talk about storylines!
 
You won't need revisionist history, plain old history will do.
If it weren't for the expansion draft, the Pens may still have had both Fleury and Murray on the roster. The franchise has a window for winning it all with the amazing tandem of Crosby and Malkin. That window will soon close, if it isn't closing already. The franchise would have done everything to squeeze as much out of that window as possible, and that would have included keeping both goalies, or trading one for a much better package to help the team NOW.
The expansion draft forced their hand and stole a valuable trading chip from them. Murray was kind of shaky all year. The GM conceded that point by the major move he made at the deadline. He traded an important defensive piece for what he hoped would be a piece to enhance scoring, a third line center. Odd to weaken the thing that may have helped Murray the most, but obviously feeling the Pens would need to outscore other teams significantly to win. Like 5+ goals /game.
It seemed to have backfired on two levels, the defense is noticeably weaker, and the offense hasn't expanded.
Also, as someone mentioned above, the franchise failed to secure a steady backup to Murray. They were OK with the two rookie goalies, who showed flashes in the regular season, but are untested in the playoffs. Therefore, when Murray gets funky, there is no other option.
It was completely puzzling that Rutherford didn't add to the defensive corps at the deadline. Everyone expected a move similar to the past two runs where he added a solid defenseman or two to bolster the blue line. This year, they got nothing and gave up Cole as a throw in that the receiving club promptly flipped to Columbus.
Brassard has been been pretty disappointing, and the Kessel homerun from two years ago is either hurt or his shorts are too tight!
The Pens roster is plenty good enough to win these next two games against the Caps. You don't write off a team with Crosby and Malkin who have risen to the occasion time after time. Sullivan is also a cool head under pressure. Contrast that with the playoff pedigree of Ovechkin and Trotts and how this is set up. Win in Pittsburgh and take your chances in game 7.
The next series will be the Pens Waterloo if they prevail. If they pull this off, and go on and defeat the Lightning it will be bigger than the Miracle on Ice!
Can you imagine the ratings for a Penguin/Golden Knights series? Talk about storylines!
I guess my overriding thought is that this team really hasn’t had a championship look all season. Maybe it was the loss of the key veteran pieces and lack of blue line depth, but there’s just been a missing ingredient. A loss to Washington will hurt, but it was probably inevitable. I hope I am wrong.
 
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Well no way were they going to expose Murray to the expansion draft. But he could have commanded a king's ransom in a trade, where for whatever reason MAF didn't. Look, there is alot of revisionist history going on with MAF. The truth is, he wasn't really that highly regarded anymore. If so, teams would have lined up to call Rutherford for his services. Credit to MAF for taking this challenge, being motivated and being really still in great shape and athletic for his age. But my god, there are alot of people rewriting history. I actually saw more than one post in some threads on the Athletic or DK on Sports, where people actually said "Fleury always played well and won the big games, Murray seems to shrink with the big games". Think about that. Did the Pens shut out Nashville back to back because MAF was stellar from the bench? Did the Pens come back from 3-2 series deficit because MAF cheered on Murray from the bench? This stuff is getting insane.

It almost makes me root against Fleury to shut these morons up.

Agree, it is crazy.
 
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Well no way were they going to expose Murray to the expansion draft. But he could have commanded a king's ransom in a trade, where for whatever reason MAF didn't. Look, there is alot of revisionist history going on with MAF. The truth is, he wasn't really that highly regarded anymore. If so, teams would have lined up to call Rutherford for his services. Credit to MAF for taking this challenge, being motivated and being really still in great shape and athletic for his age. But my god, there are alot of people rewriting history. I actually saw more than one post in some threads on the Athletic or DK on Sports, where people actually said "Fleury always played well and won the big games, Murray seems to shrink with the big games". Think about that. Did the Pens shut out Nashville back to back because MAF was stellar from the bench? Did the Pens come back from 3-2 series deficit because MAF cheered on Murray from the bench? This stuff is getting insane.

It almost makes me root against Fleury to shut these morons up.
Not sure of your statement that Fleury wasn't highly regarded.
Circumstances more than regard made Fleury less than a hot commodity for other GM's.
Consider a lot of teams with serious playoff aspirations were already set in goal. It would be foolish for a rebuilding team to give up a lot for an aging goalie with a hefty salary.
Also, other GM's knew the pickle the Pens were in with their goalies and the expansion draft. They knew one would be exposed, and had the Pens in a precarious bargaining position. Any offers for Fleury were low ball offers.
The decision the Pens made on their goalies was sound. Age and money, as well as Murray's performance in the playoffs made the decision easier. That and the fact another top player would have had to been exposed to the draft...Letang anyone???? LOL
To say it was because of Fleury's deteriorating performance would be revisionist history. Fleury was playing some of his best hockey his last two years here. He was a good teammate and fan favorite, although those traits would not stop a GM from making a sound move.
There is no reason to root against Fleury. He did NOTHING to raise the ire of Pens fans. No parting shots, snide remarks, pouting, always being ready when his number was called, even though his demotion was a bitter shot to his pride.
The play of Fleury has been a great story and given his personality three cheers for him.
It has nothing to do with second guessing fans. Fleury doesn't cause that, Murray's play does.
 
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Anyone who thinks this team isn't capable of beating the Capitals two in a row are very much undervaluing the Pens roster. There is plenty of juice there to get this done.
These guys will be at their best in these next two, and their best is better than the Caps best as has been proven in year's past.
They may lose due to a bad bounce or bad call, or just bad luck, but they WON'T be outplayed by Washington. I'll bet on that!
 
Gotta play sprong over Simon imo.

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
Sprong-Malkin-Rust
Kessel-Sheahan-Hagelin
Kuhnhackl-Brassard-Rowney

Ship Sheary and Letang with their garbage contracts to Siberia.
They're not gonna play sprong. May surprise me but I doubt it. Idk what reason there is to keep playing Simon over rowney though.

I'd go:
Guentzel-Sid-Horny
Hags-Geno-Phil
Sheary-Brass-Rust
Kuhnackl-Sheahan-Rowney

Simon other than the nice play he had in game 4 hasn't brought anything offensively, and it kills us when he's on a top 2 line. If you're not gonna get much offensively from either guy, give me the better defensive forward in rowney every single time.
 
Not sure of your statement that Fleury wasn't highly regarded.
Circumstances more than regard made Fleury less than a hot commodity for other GM's.
Consider a lot of teams with serious playoff aspirations were already set in goal. It would be foolish for a rebuilding team to give up a lot for an aging goalie with a hefty salary.
Also, other GM's knew the pickle the Pens were in with their goalies and the expansion draft. They knew one would be exposed, and had the Pens in a precarious bargaining position. Any offers for Fleury were low ball offers.
The decision the Pens made on their goalies was sound. Age and money, as well as Murray's performance in the playoffs made the decision easier. That and the fact another top player would have had to been exposed to the draft...Letang anyone???? LOL
To say it was because of Fleury's deteriorating performance would be revisionist history. Fleury was playing some of his best hockey his last two years here. He was a good teammate and fan favorite, although those traits would not stop a GM from making a sound move.
There is no reason to root against Fleury. He did NOTHING to raise the ire of Pens fans. No parting shots, snide remarks, pouting, always being ready when his number was called, even though his demotion was a bitter shot to his pride.
The play of Fleury has been a great story and given his personality three cheers for him.
It has nothing to do with second guessing fans. Fleury doesn't cause that, Murray's play does.
I'm still shocked there wasn't a deal made with Calgary. Even the Mike Smith deal seems like it would have been better than what ultimately transpired with Vegas. Of course, Fleury should have been worth more than Smith and maybe with him Calgary would have been a playoff team despite the fact Smith played pretty well, but his backups were atrocious.
 
Please please please make Letang a healthy scratch tonight. I know: not going to happen.
 
Stop looking at it inside of a box as if the decision for who to keep came down to have to protect Fleury or have to protect Murray. They tried to trade Fleury, but received no bites, so they had to add a 2 round pick also. It now looks like we gave up the better goalie and gave them a 2nd rounder to take him so that we can save 2 million for 2 years. I got an idea where you could save more than 2 million and keep Fleury (Sheary, Hunwick).


The trade value of Murray was sky high. Calgary was very interestrd in him and always asked for him when JR asked if they had interest in Fleury. No doubt in my mind that with tinkering, we could have had Dougie Hamilton back as trade return for Murray. You would have then had Letang in the 2nd pairing where he belongs and an early 20’s stud as your top pairing defense.


This leaves you with 2 years of Fleury’s contract with both Jarry and Guatavsson as young guys that he could hand the torch down to.


And if you think Murray was or outplayed Fleury last year, then you’re nuts. Fleury was the clear choice as playoff MVP after ousting Columbus AND Washington. You really want to compare Ottawa and last year’s Nashville team to the first 2? Let’s face it, Sullivan has a hard on for his guys.
 
They're not gonna play sprong. May surprise me but I doubt it. Idk what reason there is to keep playing Simon over rowney though.

I'd go:
Guentzel-Sid-Horny
Hags-Geno-Phil
Sheary-Brass-Rust
Kuhnackl-Sheahan-Rowney

Simon other than the nice play he had in game 4 hasn't brought anything offensively, and it kills us when he's on a top 2 line. If you're not gonna get much offensively from either guy, give me the better defensive forward in rowney every single time.

Another case of Sullivan’s hard-on for “his” guys who try hard, but don’t have the skill to produce anything. Play Sprong and see what he can do. Hell, i’d play JS Dea over Simon.
 
5/7/18- Caps vs Pens ..... Round 2, Game 6 ..... elimination game for the Pens ......

Will someone not on the 1st line score ?

Will the defense play smart, win the battles for the puck and get the puck out of our zone without turnovers?

Will we stay out of the penalty box ?

Will Murray play better ?
 
Win tonight, they win game 7. Wash even with Wilson back will be mindpucked. Let’s Go Los Penguinos!
 
He just needs to rip shots and nothing else-
Or sit

It's amazing, he just can't handle the puck ..... ?? hand/ wrist injury ...... Caps played well in the 1st period ...... Pens with too many giveaways, may need to get it deep and go to work....... not many shots on goal in the 1st period ..... Oshie rang one off the post.
 
It's amazing, he just can't handle the puck ..... ?? hand/ wrist injury ...... Caps played well in the 1st period ...... Pens with too many giveaways, may need to get it deep and go to work....... not many shots on goal in the 1st period ..... Oshie rang one off the post.

It’s a wrist injury he got during a regular season game vs Ottawa.
 
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