Big XII vs ACC perception
- Thread starter ThePanthers
- Start date
Hey Greg, about being disruptive, didn't you take Texas?
pittdan77
Athletic Director
Yeah, but there's a long standing tradition of schools fleeing whatever that conference is called.
All kidding aside, the SEC probably wouldn't mind FSU going to the Big12. Imagine any of his schools chasing the same recruit as FSU and getting to talk about what trips to Iowa State and Utah might be like in November compared to anywhere in the SEC.
All this B12 talk makes me think more and more that FSU is staying until 2036 and just trying to get a better deal from the ACC.
They obviously aren't going to the B12 so why else leak this info?
Florida State isn’t leaking any of this. It’s all coming from the Big 12 and their weirdo Twitter army.
They know they’re not getting FSU or Clemson. The goal is to try and get schools like Louisville, Miami, NC State, Virginia Tech, and Pitt to hit the panic button, think that they’re going to be left behind, and continue to destabilize the ACC.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
Yeah. That bunch wants to trigger schools to vote for the conference to dissolve because there is this weird believe that somehow the ACC sucks but all of those schools will make the Big12 a big revenue conference, the same as the SEC and B1G. No idea how any of that reconciles when they throw around numbers like 24 schools making B1G/SEC money.
If anything even your opening sentence is overstated. UNC will only leave the ACC if it has lardy been rendered incapable of being at least close to a Major conference. That means that I think that UNC will stay with the ACC if both FSU and Clemson left, leaving ACC football a weak sister indeed.
Beyond that, I also think that recent events show that neither BT nor SEC is willing to act to take either FSU or Clemson, much less both , even if somehow they got a very cheap buyout of the ACC. Why? Both leagues already are overloaded with huge football stadiums and TV fan bases. Both want UNC more than they can get good uses of FSU and/or Clemson.
I hope that ESPN decides not to renew the ACC deal with both FSU and Clemson in the league. WE would get more m,kney on the open market. Not equal to BT or SEC, but considerably closer. perhaps even also to take from the Big XII. Amazon has the money to pay for all that, that and then immediacy become a major player in college sports broadcasting in one move.
It takes 2 parties. FSU wants the leaks, otherwise an NDA would have been signed. Both parties want this information out. FSU is obviously trying to get a better deal with the ACC. They even said that way back when saying things like unless there's a change in the revenue distribution model, yada yada yada. I say give it to them.
This doesn’t smell like Florida State. We’ve basically had the two major conferences that they’re trying to get invited to spend the past week either saying that they’re too much of a pain in the ass to be around (B1G) or Greg Sankey basically dunking on them in public all week. This isn’t the same tone as the wink and nod game that the Big Ten played with Oregon and Washington last year.
To be frank, I think that Florida State is embarrassed to have the Big 12 attach themselves to Florida State. That’s not why they’re spending millions of dollars suing the ACC. They want to Be Important, and Be Recognized For Being Important. Rumors about them joining the truck stop conference as a backup plan doesn't do that.
Well, if they know they wont get a B10 or SEC invite, wouldn't it make sense to float the B12 rumors so that they can potentially get a better deal from the ACC?
They have zero leverage with the acc for a preferential deal .
Why would the ACC give them that deal , and what does it say to the other members ?
Buddy , stick to pretending you run your own imaginary network .
But there was also far less of a potential lawsuit for the Big Ten for the wink and nod.
I don’t know what the SEC or Big Ten’s intentions are towards the more valuable ACC commodities.
But even if they wanted them, their public position would be no different. Because FSU and Clemson are under contract.
Yeah, they can't come out and say "hey, if those guys can break their contract we'd take them in a heartbeat", because then they'd be on the hook for tampering with someone under contract to someone else.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
But there are subtle ways to signal interest. "We aren't really in a position to discuss future additions to the conference but as the landscape of college football continues to change, we will certainly explore all options."
The back side of all of this is that none of these conference people want to threaten stability but seeing a GOR get tossed in court. They also have them and don't want to start poaching each other quite yet.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
The point is more that there’s a significant rhetorical gap between those conferences saying things like “we like our group” or “we aren’t looking to expand at this point” and both leagues basically crapping on Florida State and Clemson last week, even up to the SEC commissioner.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
It doesn't matter. All of the Big12 fan fiction appears to be crashing down around them with indications that nobody is planning on filing to leave by the August deadline. It's a shame because my favorite one from the weekend is that the Big12 would use the private equity money to buy FSU and Clemson out of the ACC. We've seen those schools bend over for Texas but to just give money to the ACC would have brought on a tornadic level of spin from that bunch.
seeing big 12 fans on twitter now discounting the aug deadline. the new narrative is, if fsu wins the lawsuit, that will make the deadline date irrelevant.
got to love their commitment to the cause if anything..
From a Big 12 fan perspective, why do they want FSU and Clemson? The conference is secure right now and there isn't a blue chip program in place to dominate the conference. Not sure I'd want to have make conference become top heavy if its in a stable position.
Purely to establish a place with the big guys. But those 2 (3 with UNC??) folks aren't THAT stupid. The ACC is a better fit, since the P2 don't need them.
I would love to have another conference pay money that would go to Pitt athletics with less pie slices to divide it into.
yeah but if the acc loses a FSU or clemson then that means the GOR has a loophole and many other teams will follow. if one of those teams or even a UNC or virginia goes to the big 10, this conference is on life support with the plug being pulled out.
we dont want that to happen.
Which is why you take this to court and hope for they side with you. Any settlement which allows them to leave is a loss and the end of the ACC. So no reason to settle unless you are certain you will lose in court, in which case you get a few million per school for those teams to have in the bank for their move to the B12.
If the Big Ten and/or the SEC had interest in Florida State they would absolutely NOT be saying that in public. They would would be signalling their interest in private conversations behind closed doors, where everyone would have deniability. And none of us would know anything at all about it.
Kind of like what happened with us and the ACC. We didn't tell anyone we were interested in the ACC. The ACC didn't tell anyone they were interested in us. And yet behind closed doors the deal was getting done.
Complete with non-disclosure agreements. The reason the B12 and/or FSU leak their mutual interest is because it benefits both parties:
B12: scares tweener ACC schools like NC St, Lou, Miami, etc which destabilizes the league.
FSU: gives them leverage to get more $$$ from the ACC if they truly cant get out or cant get a B10/SEC invite
The GOR would be still in place though. The private equity firms are paying the exit fees in full in that scenario. Which is an imaginary scenario as if GOR stands and FSU leaves, BigXII gives up future revenue to the private equity investors in return for giving the investment money to the ACC to pay the exit fees and for media rights. So would never happen except in the simple minds of the Twitter experts.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
It really doesn't matter. If they want, they get. There are multiple reasons why they don't show interest. Look what the B1G did to Oregon. Acted like they didn't want them and pretty much forced them to beg and take a diminished share. That's the game they're playing.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
The scenario we're discussing has them buying their way out, like Maryland. Just strengthens the GOR.
Exactly.
One of two things have happened:
FSU and Clemson filed without having any back channel conversations with the P2.
FSU and Clemson filed after having back channel conversations with the P2.
I’m not sure the SEC’s public stance would be any different if it’s the former.
But if it’s the latter? This is *exactly* what they would be saying.
How did settling with MD strengthen it?
If anything it kinda showed the weakness in it all.
Which is why FSU cites the MD situation in their lawsuit.
The GOR didn't exist when Maryland left.
Maryland didn't agree or sign a new contract or anything with the increased exit fees (which are 3X the annual operating budget of the conference; a number that rises each year).
The ACC settled with Maryland at a reduced exit fee, essentially for already withheld distributions at the prior exit rate, for reasons that wouldn't exist with FSU or Clemson or anyone else. I can't remember the details, but had to do with the timing of the vote for the increased exit fee.
The ACC has zero incentive to settle with anyone else. This will play out in court, which will take a long time, and FSU and Clemson's cases appear very weak.
Right. So it couldn’t have strengthened it.
What the Maryland settlement did, that FSU does a pretty good job articulating in their petition, is show how the GOR was purely about punishment, and not an attempt to accurately assess damages.
Basically the GOR was created because of how weak the exit fee was shown to be in punishing teams enough to prevent them from leaving.
Whether the Maryland situation weakens the GOR enough to legally defeat it, I’m not arguing that. But it certainly didn’t strengthen it in anyway.
And the ACC settled with Maryland for the same reason that all of the exit fee cases were settled back then: the conferences weren’t certain they would hold up in court as liquidated damages.
In comparing the two conferences in football recently, here's how they compare (I included their new school additions as it's all about perception right):
In the ESPN 2024 post-spring pre-season rankings:
ACC has five schools: FSU (11), NC St. (13), Clemson (16), VT (21), and Miami (24)
Big 12 has five schools: Utah (9), KSt (17), Okl St. (19), Arizona (20) and Kansas (22)
In the final 2023 college football rankings:
ACC had five schools: FSU (6), Louisville (18), Clemson (20), NC St. (21) and SMU (24)
Big 12 had five schools: Arizona (11), Okl St. (16), KSt (19), Kansas (23) and West Virginia (25)
In the final 2022 college football rankings:
ACC had three schools: FSU (10), Clemson (12) and Pitt (22)
Big 12 had three schools: TCU (2), Utah (11) and K St (14)
Last two years ACC Pitt 1 win vs Big 12 West Virginia 1
If Florida State and Clemson leave the ACC, the ACC is approaching AAC level.
In the ESPN 2024 post-spring pre-season rankings:
ACC has five schools: FSU (11), NC St. (13), Clemson (16), VT (21), and Miami (24)
Big 12 has five schools: Utah (9), KSt (17), Okl St. (19), Arizona (20) and Kansas (22)
In the final 2023 college football rankings:
ACC had five schools: FSU (6), Louisville (18), Clemson (20), NC St. (21) and SMU (24)
Big 12 had five schools: Arizona (11), Okl St. (16), KSt (19), Kansas (23) and West Virginia (25)
In the final 2022 college football rankings:
ACC had three schools: FSU (10), Clemson (12) and Pitt (22)
Big 12 had three schools: TCU (2), Utah (11) and K St (14)
Last two years ACC Pitt 1 win vs Big 12 West Virginia 1
If Florida State and Clemson leave the ACC, the ACC is approaching AAC level.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
It sure didn't hurt the GOR. Maryland acknowledged it wasn't just a wave goodbye so they cut a check. Texas A&M paid an exit fee. So did Mizzou. Texas and Oklahoma staying put until their GOR expired doesn't really hurt either, doe it? If there wasn't any metal to the GOR FSU would simply declare it inapplicable, walk away, and wait for the ACC to withhold funds or sue. The whole point of suing the ACC and advancing this rhetoric is to get them to negotiate an exit, seriously unbalance the revenue sharing without tying it down to performance, or, I guess, claim an eventual win because they leave a couple of years early because this isn't going anywhere quickly.
We all get it. It's good fun for fans to root for the ACC to implode. The Big12 guys have been at this for a long time now, only to watch their own conference continually spiral. Honestly, this should be easy because everyone wants out, right? On any given day there are claims that as many as nine schools want out or have this gilded invitation waiting for them. Petition to get a vote on the agenda and hold a vote to dissolve the conference. Gets rid of the GOR and all of those messy exit fees. No idea why that isn't happening if all of these claims are true. Unless they aren't. Meanwhile, despite the best efforts of everyone to push an agenda, the ACC just keeps plodding along, doing its thing. The lawyers get rich while the FSU fan boys throw their tantrums and the Big12 guys come up with new conspiracy theories. Hey, something has to come true eventually, right?
I think there’s merit to the GOR. And I’m not convinced it will be overturned.
But the Maryland situation did not strengthen it. That’s impossible to argue.
At best it had no impact on it. And I don’t think that’s true either though.
FSU argued in its petition that the Exit Fee wasn’t enough to keep Maryland from leaving. And afterwards the ACC just started to randomly increase it without any rhyme or reason as it relates to calculated damages. And they do a good job of showing this in their suit. And FSU argues that was because it was never suppose to be a calculated damage amount. The ACC was increasing it randomly because it kept adjusting it to where it thought the sweet spot for deterrence would be. And then realized the Exit Fee could never accomplish that, and so out of the failure to stop Maryland from leaving, the GOR was born. And so the GOR cannot be separated from its inception: the failure to deter Maryland, and a substitute that would punish any future team enough to prevent them from leaving.
There’s some merit to that argument. Anybody refusing to concede that is just refusing to concede anything. It’s a shot against the ACC. Now whether you then find that for sure means the GOR was a punitive clause instead of an actual calculation of damages, is another question. But it at least makes one say, “hmmmm, yeah, I can see that,” which means it weakens the GOR to *some* extent.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
Yeah, but FSU agreed to those fees and zero evidence has been presented that they had a problem with them until now and that's the real problem. It's really hard to ignore that they didn't even attempt to challenge the fees or at least formally object to it. I think a lot of this is the cart leading the horse and looking for a convenient off ramp. Yes, you can argue that there is some legal merit to the claims but the whole notion is just intellectually dishonest given FSU's prior actions.
Like I said, this is all a huge waste of time and money for FSU when we've been assured that there are plenty of schools that want out and/or have a big fat check waiting when they land. Petition for a vote and get it over with.
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So with UNC’s QB out we all thinking Pitt 10/2 11/1 this year???
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