OT:Buccos

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Doesn't matter where the money is going. Dead or not, those teams won.

Yes, sometimes teams spend too much money on dumb moves. But bad teams almost never are spending money.

Your post makes no sense. What has the Dodgers won? And "bad teams spend no money". Um....Chuckie, are you inferring the Pirates are a bad team? 2nd best record in MLB the last 3 years. That is a "bad" team? You suck at arguing your points. Really suck at it.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

To be 100% fair to Dave Littlefield, a scout or front office member calling a guy a #3 starter isn't particularly perjorative.

The basic terminology is that there are maybe 10-12 "aces" or "#1" starters at any one time in baseball. Maybe another 20 #2 starters. And then probably 30 or so #3 starters. So a #3 starter is still one of the 60 or so best pitchers in baseball.

A true #4 starter is considered to be dead league average (they'd receive a grade of "50" out of 80). It's why the Niese for Walker swap made sense. You were trading 2 guys who are league average players making a similar salary at positions of excess.

I think a lot of that is bullshit PBB11. Really bullshit. I understand what you are saying, but it just doesn't make sense. And in David Littlefield's case, that was a horrible pick. Look who came out that draft, BJ Upton, Prince Fielder, Zack Greinke, Cole Hamels, Scott Kazmir, Matt Cain, et al all went in that draft. We had the choice of any of them.

Not to go off topic, but to show you how a) the MLB draft is a crap shoot and b) the draft has changed with the slotting system eliminating "signability". The Pirates picked 1st and took Bullington. The Rays picked next and picked Upton. Well the rest of the Top 5 were every bit as bad of picks as Bullington; The Reds took Christopher Gruler at 3, The O's picked Adam Loewen at 4 and the then Expos picked Clint Everts at 5. Yikes!

 

[Pittbaseball11]

I think a lot of that is bullshit PBB11. Really bullshit. I understand what you are saying, but it just doesn't make sense. And in David Littlefield's case, that was a horrible pick. Look who came out that draft, BJ Upton, Prince Fielder, Zack Greinke, Cole Hamels, Scott Kazmir, Matt Cain, et al all went in that draft. We had the choice of any of them.

Not to go off topic, but to show you how a) the MLB draft is a crap shoot and b) the draft has changed with the slotting system eliminating "signability". The Pirates picked 1st and took Bullington. The Rays picked next and picked Upton. Well the rest of the Top 5 were every bit as bad of picks as Bullington; The Reds took Christopher Gruler at 3, The O's picked Adam Loewen at 4 and the then Expos picked Clint Everts at 5. Yikes!

Yeah, sorry, I wasn't meaning to seem like I was defending the Bullington pick -- it was bad. Upton was the clear choice given the lack of slotting back then. I was more just saying that I think being called a #3 starter gets chalked up as "oh he's just going to be an average innings eater" when that isn't what it really is. That's more of your #4 starter.

In context the Bullington pick was bad, no doubt, I just think that most kids we see drafted in the 1st round on Thursday will probably be guys who teams hope are #3 starters. Dakota Hudson is regarded as the 2nd best college pitcher, for instance, and that's probably his best case scenario. Pitt's own TJ Zeuch has been called a guy who can be a 4th starter, and he's regarded as a late first round type of guy.

Realistically it's just difficult to expect a guy to be a #1 or #2 when there's still projecting to be done. It's why Taillon getting a 70 in his recent write-up is very encouraging.

 

[Ski11585]

So much stupid in this thread.

Just for reference. This time last year the Pirates had 31 wins. Right now they have 31 wins.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

But he was better last year and I'd bet he'd be better this year if he was still here. He was more efficient and had better stuff.

Here are the two guys numbers from last year and so far this year. One of them is clearly better than the other. Guess which one is which.

Pitcher 1:
11-8, 3.61 era, 106 era+, 3.41 fip, 1.27 whip, 7.6 k/9, 2.4 bb/9, 3.0 war
6-3, 3.57 era, 116 era+, 4.48 fip, 1.19 whip, 5.7 k/9, 2.9 bb/9, 1.3 war

Pitcher 2:
19-8, 2.60 era, 148 era+, 2.66 fip, 1.09 whip, 8.7 k/9, 1.9 bb/9, 4.5 war
5-4, 2.85 era, 141 era+, 3.05 fip, 1.34 whip, 7.1 k/9, 2.6 bb/9, 1.4 war

I guess that isn't really a fair guessing game though, because anyone who follows baseball knows that JA Happ has never even gotten in the same area code as 19 wins in a season, so it's obvious which is which. It is also obvious that one of those sets of numbers is much better than the other one. And of course those are Cole's numbers.

To be fair though I will amend my statement. The only people who think JA Happ is a better pitcher than Gerrit Cole are Happ's mom and people who have no idea what they are talking about.

 

[levance2]

Doesn't matter where the money is going. Dead or not, those teams won.

Which year are you retroactively awarding the Dodgers a World Series win? They've spent and spent and spent, and don't have a ring to show for it.

 

[CaptainMurphy]

Here are the two guys numbers from last year and so far this year. One of them is clearly better than the other. Guess which one is which.

Pitcher 1:
11-8, 3.61 era, 106 era+, 3.41 fip, 1.27 whip, 7.6 k/9, 2.4 bb/9, 3.0 war
6-3, 3.57 era, 116 era+, 4.48 fip, 1.19 whip, 5.7 k/9, 2.9 bb/9, 1.3 war

Pitcher 2:
19-8, 2.60 era, 148 era+, 2.66 fip, 1.09 whip, 8.7 k/9, 1.9 bb/9, 4.5 war
5-4, 2.85 era, 141 era+, 3.05 fip, 1.34 whip, 7.1 k/9, 2.6 bb/9, 1.4 war

I guess that isn't really a fair guessing game though, because anyone who follows baseball knows that JA Happ has never even gotten in the same area code as 19 wins in a season, so it's obvious which is which. It is also obvious that one of those sets of numbers is much better than the other one. And of course those are Cole's numbers.

To be fair though I will amend my statement. The only people who think JA Happ is a better pitcher than Gerrit Cole are Happ's mom and people who have no idea what they are talking about.

I never said Happ is better. Im sure Cole has the better future, by far. But Happ did have better numbers the second half of last year. Perhaps Searage was able to get more out of Happ than others. I'll still say he should have been starting the WC game.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Here are the two guys numbers from last year and so far this year. One of them is clearly better than the other. Guess which one is which.

Pitcher 1:
11-8, 3.61 era, 106 era+, 3.41 fip, 1.27 whip, 7.6 k/9, 2.4 bb/9, 3.0 war
6-3, 3.57 era, 116 era+, 4.48 fip, 1.19 whip, 5.7 k/9, 2.9 bb/9, 1.3 war

Pitcher 2:
19-8, 2.60 era, 148 era+, 2.66 fip, 1.09 whip, 8.7 k/9, 1.9 bb/9, 4.5 war
5-4, 2.85 era, 141 era+, 3.05 fip, 1.34 whip, 7.1 k/9, 2.6 bb/9, 1.4 war

I guess that isn't really a fair guessing game though, because anyone who follows baseball knows that JA Happ has never even gotten in the same area code as 19 wins in a season, so it's obvious which is which. It is also obvious that one of those sets of numbers is much better than the other one. And of course those are Cole's numbers.

To be fair though I will amend my statement. The only people who think JA Happ is a better pitcher than Gerrit Cole are Happ's mom and people who have no idea what they are talking about.

Not going to the Happ is better argument, because he isn't. But it bothers me for all Cole's stuff, he doesn't miss as many bats as you think he would. Players hit his fastball with some regularity. He throws a lot of pitches without a lot of K's. Now looking at him, Verlander really didn't start dominating until he was 27, Koufax didn't dominate until his late 20's, Roy Halladay's breakout year was when he was 26. Max Scherzer really didn't start dominating until he was 27. So Cole is still probably not a finished product yet.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

But it bothers me for all Cole's stuff, he doesn't miss as many bats as you think he would.

He certainly hasn't been as good this year as he was last year. He's striking out less guys and walking more. That's a bad combination.

 

[QuitCallingMeWanny]

The problem Gerrit Cole has is that his fastball is pretty flat and I don't know how you can fix that....If he isn't hitting his spots and if his off speed stuff isn't sharp, major league hitters will crush a mid nineties flat fastball anytime anyplace anywhere

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The problem Gerrit Cole has is that his fastball is pretty flat and I don't know how you can fix that....If he isn't hitting his spots and if his off speed stuff isn't sharp, major league hitters will crush a mid nineties flat fastball anytime anyplace anywhere

He needs a knockout slider. Then spotting the fastball. You are right about it being flat.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Everything comes in hard and his mechanics are so clean that there's no deception. That's been the theory since college. Mark Appel had similar concerns, but without a 70 fastball and 70 slider to increase his margin of error.

 

[pittdan77]

Quit using the Dodgers as an example. I already stated that spending isn't a guarantee. I'm not even talking about going off the reservation. But whatever.

I'm stupid and that's fine. When the trade deadline rolls around and the Pirates do little or nothing to improve the team (again), you're welcome to sit back and convince yourself that it's smart and that they will eventually break through. Come fall, they'll be playing for another wild card and everyone will be so happy (BUCN!!!) because the bar is so low. Won't even matter when they get smoked by another hot pitcher. Everyone can sit around an talk about how great things look for next year. Always next year for the Pirates. Always.

 

[QuitCallingMeWanny]

Quit using the Dodgers as an example. I already stated that spending isn't a guarantee. I'm not even talking about going off the reservation. But whatever.

I'm stupid and that's fine. When the trade deadline rolls around and the Pirates do little or nothing to improve the team (again), you're welcome to sit back and convince yourself that it's smart and that they will eventually break through. Come fall, they'll be playing for another wild card and everyone will be so happy (BUCN!!!) because the bar is so low. Won't even matter when they get smoked by another hot pitcher. Everyone can sit around an talk about how great things look for next year. Always next year for the Pirates. Always.

You're dumb

 

[Pittbaseball11]

You're dumb

Between obsessing about payroll and free agency, overvaluing the impact of the trade deadline, and denying that the baseball playoffs are totally random -- I think we've found a 93.7 The Fan listener.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Quit using the Dodgers as an example. I already stated that spending isn't a guarantee. I'm not even talking about going off the reservation. But whatever.

I'm stupid and that's fine. When the trade deadline rolls around and the Pirates do little or nothing to improve the team (again), you're welcome to sit back and convince yourself that it's smart and that they will eventually break through. Come fall, they'll be playing for another wild card and everyone will be so happy (BUCN!!!) because the bar is so low. Won't even matter when they get smoked by another hot pitcher. Everyone can sit around an talk about how great things look for next year. Always next year for the Pirates. Always.

Well come trade deadline, what would you do? What? Trade Taillon, Glasnow and Bell for some players? Why would you take that risk. The Pirates are playing in the wildcard if they get in, they and no one else, are catching the Cubs. What, do you think the Pirates should have traded for Cueto or Price last year? JA Happ had a better 2nd half than both. And we still would have had to face Arrieta.

You and Del just cannot get off of this narrative.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Between obsessing about payroll and free agency, overvaluing the impact of the trade deadline, and denying that the baseball playoffs are totally random -- I think we've found a 93.7 The Fan listener.

Well yes and no. The one game wildcard, as we have seen, is not random, if you have a shutdown ace. Arrieta, Baumgarner, Scherzer, Kershaw, all could be possible mound opponents, and for one game, that's it.

That being said, I am comfortable with where the Pirates are, comfortable even if they miss the playoffs this year, that their window still has a good 5 years or so on it.

 

[drunkinoakland]

Quit using the Dodgers as an example. I already stated that spending isn't a guarantee. I'm not even talking about going off the reservation. But whatever.

I'm stupid and that's fine. When the trade deadline rolls around and the Pirates do little or nothing to improve the team (again), you're welcome to sit back and convince yourself that it's smart and that they will eventually break through. Come fall, they'll be playing for another wild card and everyone will be so happy (BUCN!!!) because the bar is so low. Won't even matter when they get smoked by another hot pitcher. Everyone can sit around an talk about how great things look for next year. Always next year for the Pirates. Always.

You are right they should have traded Marte and Taillon for Justin Upton or Hunter Pence years ago, but Nutting was too "cheap".

 

[pittdan77]

Between obsessing about payroll and free agency, overvaluing the impact of the trade deadline, and denying that the baseball playoffs are totally random -- I think we've found a 93.7 The Fan listener.

Fan isn't broadcast where I live. Thanks. Just familiar with this train wreck. Nobody has attempted to explain how the Pirates get a pass compared to the Penguins when it comes to investing in players. Guess the Pens would be playing for the Cup if they had sat on their hands at the deadline, right?

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Well yes and no. The one game wildcard, as we have seen, is not random, if you have a shutdown ace. Arrieta, Baumgarner, Scherzer, Kershaw, all could be possible mound opponents, and for one game, that's it.

That being said, I am comfortable with where the Pirates are, comfortable even if they miss the playoffs this year, that their window still has a good 5 years or so on it.

It's still pretty random, though. Like, to the point that I don't think I'd feel confident placing a correct bet with a gun to my head. There was no reason for the Pirates to sweep the Mets yesterday with Niese and Nicasio facing off against Matz and DeGrom. But, stuff happens in a one-game sample.

Kershaw has gotten knocked around in the playoffs previously. That doesn't diminish him at all and I would still feel confident handing him the ball any day, but more to show that anything can happen.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Fan isn't broadcast where I live. Thanks. Just familiar with this train wreck. Nobody has attempted to explain how the Pirates get a pass compared to the Penguins when it comes to investing in players. Guess the Pens would be playing for the Cup if they had sat on their hands at the deadline, right?

Where is the issue with the Pirates investing in players? They've extended pretty much every guy who was an extension candidate.

The Penguins were viewed as a train wreck before the guys from Wilkes-Barre came out of nowhere and provided cheap, capable depth. And they were. I think they'd likely be in the Cup Finals without the trade deadline, yes.

Again, your issue keeps coming back to "the Pirates don't give out bad contracts". What rational person is going to get worked up about that?

The Pirates added the most payroll in MLB last year at the trade deadline. That checks off all the talking points right?

 

[levance2]

When the trade deadline rolls around and the Pirates do little or nothing to improve the team (again), you're welcome to sit back and convince yourself that it's smart and that they will eventually break through. Come fall, they'll be playing for another wild card and everyone will be so happy (BUCN!!!) because the bar is so low. Won't even matter when they get smoked by another hot pitcher. Everyone can sit around an talk about how great things look for next year. Always next year for the Pirates. Always.

If you aren't satisfied with making it as a wildcard, I'm not sure what you think the Pirates should or could do. They would basically need to acquire the good half of the roster of both the Yankees and Red Sox to have any prayer of catching the Cubs this year. If anything, the fact that the Cubs are having an all-time great season retroactively rationalizes the Pirates unimpressive winter. The Pirates could have added another $20M in payroll and still finished behind the Cubs. If you are going to be 2nd place, why spend $20M more to do so? You'd have an argument if we were 2 games back or something, but we aren't.

As I said earlier in this thread, I think the Pirates do have to invest more in 2017, because there is a very short period of their current roster all being here at the same time. If Cutch leaves, or even stays but fades from his peak, the fact that the Pirates' best result was playing NLDS Game 5 in 2013 isn't going to be satisfying.

 

[PA_Panther]

It's actually pretty interesting that the dodgers were brought up in this thread. Since they went all Payroll happy crazy the past two years with people like Crawford and Gonzalez, their GM got fired because they couldn't get it done. Like the smart people they are they hired someone who didn't give out bad contracts and identified talent at a reasonable rate. His name is Andrew Friedman, from the Tampa Bay Rays.

Nobody in baseball wants to be where the Dodgers, Yankees, Angels were/are. More people are trying to copy what the Pirates have done these past few years not what the dodgers and Yankees were doing.

 

[TD_istheman]

Curious to hear others take on the Buccos with about 1/3 of the season completed. I just don't think the BUccos have "it" this year and will probably be sitting out the post season. They just seem to have too many issues on the pitching side of the equation, combined with Cutch still not hitting as well has he has. Way too many things need to change for the Pirates to nail down a WC spot and even then, I don't see them getting past the Cubbies.

Franky and Watson need to get back in the groove again. I think Watson should be able to get back on track but Im not as optimistic about Franky who has largely anchored the rotation the least few years.

They need to find two more starters. After Cole and Neise Locke there's not much there.

Cutch has to regain his stroke. Don't know for sure but I don't think hes ever struggled this far into the season.

Just too many things need to get corrected for this team to contend. I guess we'll find out during the next stretch of games against some of the better teams in the NL. They could get buried if things don't change dramatically

Nutting has exactly what he wants, a competitive team, not a winner, that cost too much. He has a team good enough to stick around but doesn't cost a lot as well. CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP and a city full of suckers

 

[TD_istheman]

Steelers and Penguins don't win every year, but it's not from trying. The Pirates don't want to win, too expensive for the billionaire to win. Nutting has a city full of suckers

 

[Swervin27]

Steelers and Penguins don't win every year, but it's not from trying. The Pirates don't want to win, too expensive for the billionaire to win. Nutting has a city full of suckers

Oh no, Del has a companion..

 

[drunkinoakland]

I think the Pirates were 3.6 million away from the World Series last year. That 3.6 million in the form of Jake Arrieta's 2015 contract, of course.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

I think the Pirates were 3.6 million away from the World Series last year. That 3.6 million in the form of Jake Arrieta's 2015 contract, of course.

Yeah but he wouldn't have been nearly that good if they weren't paying Edwin Jackson $14MM to be a middle reliever in AAA.

 

[PA_Panther]

Clearly nobody here knows the economics in baseball. To completely simplify and show you how messed up it is. The Pittsburgh Pirates receive roughly 17-19 million per year from Root Sports. The new Dodgers tv contract pays them 8.3 billion over the next 25 years. You can do the math on that because its absurd how much money they receive.

I'm not saying the Pirates are poor, but in a sport where the rich always get richer they are doing a pretty damn good job in competing while pinching pennies.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

You are right they should have traded Marte and Taillon for Justin Upton or Hunter Pence years ago, but Nutting was too "cheap".

Don't forget trading Polanco, Taillon and Bell for Giancarlo Stanton.

 

[TD_istheman]

So much stupid in this thread.

Just for reference. This time last year the Pirates had 31 wins. Right now they have 31 wins.

And SHIIIIT to show for any of their wins past 4 years!

 

[Ski11585]

And SHIIIIT to show for any of their wins past 4 years!

I mean, then the only teams that ever have anything to show for their efforts are the single teams that win their respective championships. That makes for a pretty miserable existence as a fan, don't you think?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I know this, I would think big spending Angels, Dodgers, Yankees, Phillies, etc...would trade places with the Pirates over the past 4 years.

I don't get this. If the Pirates were sucking like they used to, giving away their best players, and finishing on the bottom of the standings, being out by the trade deadline, you critics with the cheap and poorly run narrative would have something. I just don't get that they run their franchise better than the Oakland A's even now, they are bad, and frauds. Wins count. Not payroll rankings.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

That makes for a pretty miserable existence as a fan, don't you think?

You've just accurately described him and a couple of the other "usual suspects".

 

[Pittbaseball11]

I don't get this. If the Pirates were sucking like they used to, giving away their best players, and finishing on the bottom of the standings, being out by the trade deadline, you critics with the cheap and poorly run narrative would have something. I just don't get that they run their franchise better than the Oakland A's even now, they are bad, and frauds. Wins count. Not payroll rankings.

The weird thing to me is just the constant paranoia. A new principal owner takes over, and immediately the Pirates pour record setting amounts money into the draft, develop a proprietary in-analytics system (MITT) and hire a whole bunch of numbers crunchers, put a crap ton of money into their Dominican facilities, and start extending their most promising young hitters through their prime years.

Rather than a "these guys get it" mentality, there's just a constant fear of "being cheap".

If anything, they damaged themselves more by trying to win in 2011 and 2012 than they did at any other point. Should've been still selling everyone and everything at that point -- not holding onto Joel Hanrahan.

 

[CaptainMurphy]

I haven't been following the Buccos as usual with the Pens still in the playoffs, but I have caught a game here or there. I watched Taillon's first start last night and came away impressed. Sure, we walked a few guys and gave up the homer, but he looked poised and had decent stuff when I'm sure he was feeling some butterflies. Hopefully the Pirates aren't planning on sending him back down in the near future (unless he struggles mightily, of course). Roll with a rotation of Cole, Liriano, Niese, Locke, Taillon and have guys like Glasnow and Kuhl waiting in the wings if a pitcher needs replacement. If Liriano can get it together and Niese can continue to improve, that is a good rotation. Put Nicasio back in the pen where he can hopefully help to solidify things. It sure would have been nice to have another quality, rested option in the pen when Hughes was melting down in the 8th.

 

[Swervin27]

I haven't been following the Buccos as usual with the Pens still in the playoffs, but I have caught a game here or there. I watched Taillon's first start last night and came away impressed. Sure, we walked a few guys and gave up the homer, but he looked poised and had decent stuff when I'm sure he was feeling some butterflies. Hopefully the Pirates aren't planning on sending him back down in the near future (unless he struggles mightily, of course). Roll with a rotation of Cole, Liriano, Niese, Locke, Taillon and have guys like Glasnow and Kuhl waiting in the wings if a pitcher needs replacement. If Liriano can get it together and Niese can continue to improve, that is a good rotation. Put Nicasio back in the pen where he can hopefully help to solidify things. It sure would have been nice to have another quality, rested option in the pen when Hughes was melting down in the 8th.

The Indy manager was on the Fan yesterday and threw out a bit of a zinger regarding Glasnow.. Said something that jumped out at me, about how he is not mentally ready.. Was pretty concerning.. He backtracked after, said he has the "tools" blah blah but man, that was quite a little nugget..

 

[CaptainMurphy]

The Indy manager was on the Fan yesterday and threw out a bit of a zinger regarding Glasnow.. Said something that jumped out at me, about how he is not mentally ready.. Was pretty concerning.. He backtracked after, said he has the "tools" blah blah but man, that was quite a little nugget..

I've heard that too. So perhaps Kuhl becomes next man up. He had great numbers, even though he struggled a little in his last start or two.

Brault would probably be ready too if not for his hamstring strain. I guess at this point he won't be an option until after the AS break.

 

[Swervin27]

I've heard that too. So perhaps Kuhl becomes next man up. He had great numbers, even though he struggled a little in his last start or two.

Brault would probably be ready too if not for his hamstring strain. I guess at this point he won't be an option until after the AS break.

he talked glowingly of Kuhl, said he needs to be in same conversation as taillon and glasnow.. We have some talent in the minors, got to give the buccos credit for that..

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The weird thing to me is just the constant paranoia. A new principal owner takes over, and immediately the Pirates pour record setting amounts money into the draft, develop a proprietary in-analytics system (MITT) and hire a whole bunch of numbers crunchers, put a crap ton of money into their Dominican facilities, and start extending their most promising young hitters through their prime years.

Rather than a "these guys get it" mentality, there's just a constant fear of "being cheap".

If anything, they damaged themselves more by trying to win in 2011 and 2012 than they did at any other point. Should've been still selling everyone and everything at that point -- not holding onto Joel Hanrahan.

Yeah that 20 year losing thing and the bad moves and bad sell offs of those past years, really hamstrung this organization against public perception vs doing what was ultimately best for the franchise.

Just yesterday, I heard Mark Madden, chief Bucco and Nutting Protagonist calling Pirate fans "idiots" again because Nutting is "taking their money". Pardon me, but hasn't the Pirates been the best value over the past 3 years cumulative of the three pro teams? Of course the Pens have completely flipped this this season. But it is that source that is driving a lot of this narrative.

Look, do I think the Pirates can and should spend more? Sure. But you don't spend to spend. I thought Happ may have been worth the risk, considering what others (Ian Kennedy) were getting and what the Pirates middle of the rotation looked like. But....signing Martin, trading for a Price last deadline, no...those would have been stupid moves.