OT:Buccos

[Pittbaseball11]

The Pirates Dominican facility isn't unique or special in any way. That they spent $5m on it doesn't really impress me much.

If it was the propriety database that led them to trade for Niese, sign Nicasio and Vogrlsong, and tender Locke a contract, then they should dump the code and start over.

If the Cubs didn't sign Lackey and Lester, they wouldn't be anywhere near as good as they are. They also spent big on Fowler, Zobrist, and Heyeard, but yeah, it's just their prospects.

You don't actually believe the stuff you post, do you?

Of course I do. Lackey and Lester are fine, they also fit in the with the "if you have absolutely no internal options on the horizon then do what you have to do" line of logic I've supported. Arrieta, Hammel, and Hendricks are pretty solid, though -- all dumpster dives or internally developed.

Fowler was a scrap heap sign at the end of free agency. Nobody wanted him, so the Cubs get no credit for him working out. Heyward was expensive, but has he been good? Zobrist is fine, but he's one player. I don't think the Pirates' moves with regards to hitters this offseason were particularly egregious. They extended 2 key pieces, picked up Joyce, picked up Freese, picked up Jaso.

It's also, as always, worth pointing out that the Cubs can eat a bad contract or 12 and not be hurt in any way. Hell, they're paying Edwin Jackson $13MM to pitch in some other organization's farm system. The Pirates can't. Just like the Brewers, Reds, and Twins couldn't. Just how it is.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

What? Someone like Zimmerman signed for 5 years entering his age 30 season, he might get be around for a year when they could be out of contention, but at that point, they'll still have Glasnow and Taillon so they very well could be the best team in the NL Central as well with those three. They'll have Marte and Polanco at that point, and Meadows.

I don't think Zimmermann is going to be good for the duration of his contract given the past history of pitching contracts, so, as you're pointing out, why would I want him tying up a roster spot and large dollars I could be spending elsewhere when I still have a great core of players under my control for several years?

When I'm at the point where the farm system has run dry (and it will run dry eventually) and my best players have a year or two left with me and there's no young core to continue on with -- then I'm adding a Zimmermann type to hopefully keep me relevant for that last year or two. Then I'll just eat those last 3 years when he's bad while I rebuild. It's simple.

Just look what the Cardinals are doing. They never add pitching in free agency on big contracts, but that team is getting old and that farm system is getting pretty bare, so what do they do? They sign Mike Leake -- a ridiculously un-Cardinals move.

Giants are doing the same thing. Team is aging, farm system is thin, they're stuck with Matt Cain's deal looming over their heads, so they're going for it now. They won on the backs of internally developed players, but now that well is running dry, so they're just trying extend their window by another year or two before they go into a rebuilding phase.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

So, to save what wild card hopes we have, and they are small, what moves are you making and when ?

Most impactful thing they can do is get Cutch and Liriano turned around to previous form and have Cole come back firing after spending only 15 days on the DL. Cervelli is out too long for that to be make-or-break, although Elias Diaz getting healthy would be a nice luxury.

We can talk about the offseason all we want, nothing they could have done would have compensated for that lost production. The rookie pitchers are going to have a learning curve (just like Cole and Polanco did), the main goal is/was to get them developed and acclimated so that it's full steam ahead next year and they can just hit the ground running.

The national sites have been saying all along they're gearing up for 2017 and beyond, it's amazing to me that this is such big news to everybody.

 

[mvk112]

Most impactful thing they can do is get Cutch and Liriano turned around to previous form and have Cole come back firing after spending only 15 days on the DL. Cervelli is out too long for that to be make-or-break, although Elias Diaz getting healthy would be a nice luxury.

We can talk about the offseason all we want, nothing they could have done would have compensated for that lost production. The rookie pitchers are going to have a learning curve (just like Cole and Polanco did), the main goal is/was to get them developed and acclimated so that it's full steam ahead next year and they can just hit the ground running.

The national sites have been saying all along they're gearing up for 2017 and beyond, it's amazing to me that this is such big news to everybody.

That wasn't the national sites saying that, it was the local blogs doing what they do... Propaganda for the front office. You still have David Todd defending Jeff Locke to this day, and Timmy doing his best to defend the front office for keeping Glasnow down. If Glasnow gets called up to replace Locke next week, both of those guys will change their tune so fast their readers won't know what him them.

This is one of the best offenses in the NL, even with Cutch a bit down. If they even had league average pitching in the spots of the three jokers, they'd be at the top of the Wild Card race. Give them a legitimate SP, Taillon, and Glasnow for the majority of the year, and they're not out of it for the division just yet.

But now, you're going to see guys like Melancon, Freese, Joyce, and maybe even Jaso dealt away. But, as he did when he sold off talent in the past, NH will go for quantity over quality, ensuring he gets a 4th OF and SP that nobody else wants back. And in no way will that help them now or in the future.

But, at least they have that proprietary analytics system that tells them it's a good idea to have three terrible SP in the rotation.

And by the way, why on earth would anyone think it's a good idea to punt on a year of the prime of Cutch/Kang/Marte? That is one of the stupidest theories ever floated about, and if it was the plan of the front office, they're the dumbest group of people ever put together.

Let's waste a year so we can maybe be better next year, despite our core being a year older!

 

[Pittbaseball11]

That wasn't the national sites saying that, it was the local blogs doing what they do... Propaganda for the front office. You still have David Todd defending Jeff Locke to this day, and Timmy doing his best to defend the front office for keeping Glasnow down. If Glasnow gets called up to replace Locke next week, both of those guys will change their tune so fast their readers won't know what him them.

This is one of the best offenses in the NL, even with Cutch a bit down. If they even had league average pitching in the spots of the three jokers, they'd be at the top of the Wild Card race. Give them a legitimate SP, Taillon, and Glasnow for the majority of the year, and they're not out of it for the division just yet.

But now, you're going to see guys like Melancon, Freese, Joyce, and maybe even Jaso dealt away. But, as he did when he sold off talent in the past, NH will go for quantity over quality, ensuring he gets a 4th OF and SP that nobody else wants back. And in no way will that help them now or in the future.

But, at least they have that proprietary analytics system that tells them it's a good idea to have three terrible SP in the rotation.

And by the way, why on earth would anyone think it's a good idea to punt on a year of the prime of Cutch/Kang/Marte? That is one of the stupidest theories ever floated about, and if it was the plan of the front office, they're the dumbest group of people ever put together.

Let's waste a year so we can maybe be better next year, despite our core being a year older!

David Schoenfield at ESPN, Fangraphs, Baseball Prospectus all believed they were going to try to make due this year while they got up their main pitching prospects and then they would go into next year with almost their entire main roster set. It was near unanimous agreement that they needed to get up Glasnow and Taillon.

Nobody believed they were punting on the year, and you're still misidentifying what their biggest issue is. The back of the rotation is annoying but Liriano has been their worst pitcher so far this year and Cutch has been the rough equivalent of a AAA player. That's nearly 9 wins of lost value compared to last year if they don't turn it around. They aren't recouping that in free agency.

 

[mvk112]

I don't think Zimmermann is going to be good for the duration of his contract given the past history of pitching contracts, so, as you're pointing out, why would I want him tying up a roster spot and large dollars I could be spending elsewhere when I still have a great core of players under my control for several years?

Where are you spending elsewhere that would have anywhere near of an impact as a legitimate SP?

They spent $18m on Locke, Niese, Vogelsong, and Nicasio. And they waste about $20M every year on flotsam. Look at last year - Charlie Morton, Corey Hart, Tabata/Morse was almost $20M.

They barely even have to increase payroll to add someone legit, just stop spending stupidly. Did anyone who watched the Pirates over the past six years think it was a good idea to give Jose Tabata a long term deal? To pay Charlie Morton $8M per year? To sign Corey Hart, who was both injured and horrible?

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Where are you spending elsewhere that would have anywhere near of an impact as a legitimate SP?

They spent $18m on Locke, Niese, Vogelsong, and Nicasio. And they waste about $20M every year on flotsam. Look at last year - Charlie Morton, Corey Hart, Tabata/Morse was almost $20M.

They barely even have to increase payroll to add someone legit, just stop spending stupidly. Did anyone who watched the Pirates over the past six years think it was a good idea to give Jose Tabata a long term deal? To pay Charlie Morton $8M per year? To sign Corey Hart, who was both injured and horrible?

Spending stupidly is having a $25MM contract on your books for the next 3 years. There's no such thing as a bad one year contract. That's elementary.

 

[mvk112]

David Schoenfield at ESPN, Fangraphs, Baseball Prospectus all believed they were going to try to make due this year while they got up their main pitching prospects and then they would go into next year with almost their entire main roster set. It was near unanimous agreement that they needed to get up Glasnow and Taillon.

Nobody believed they were punting on the year, and you're still misidentifying what their biggest issue is. The back of the rotation is annoying but Liriano has been their worst pitcher so far this year and Cutch has been the rough equivalent of a AAA player. That's nearly 9 wins of lost value compared to last year if they don't turn it around. They aren't recouping that in free agency.

You haven't watched the Pirates or even looked at the stat sheet if you think Liriano has been their worst pitcher. All three of the aforementioned clowns that comprise the back of the rotation have been much worse, and having those three clowns in the rotation all year is most certainly the biggest problem. Only a staunch front office fan would deny that, because it makes NH look like a bumbling idiot for putting together this roster.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

You haven't watched the Pirates or even looked at the stat sheet if you think Liriano has been their worst pitcher. All three of the aforementioned clowns that comprise the back of the rotation have been much worse, and having those three clowns in the rotation all year is most certainly the biggest problem. Only a staunch front office fan would deny that, because it makes NH look like a bumbling idiot for putting together this roster.

Francisco Liriano is tied with Jeff Locke at the bottom of the rotation as a -0.4 WAR pitcher. He's been a complete and total mess by every metric.

 

[mvk112]

Spending stupidly is having a $25MM contract on your books for the next 3 years. There's no such thing as a bad one year contract. That's elementary.

You're wrong. Nicasio, Locke, Vogelsong, and Niese are all on one year deals and they are all horrid deals. You're either dishonest or stupid if you say you'd rather have those four than Jordan Zimmerman.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

You're wrong. Nicasio, Locke, Vogelsong, and Niese are all on one year deals and they are all horrid deals. You're either dishonest or stupid if you say you'd rather have those four than Jordan Zimmerman.

I would rather have those guys for 1 year than Zimmermann for 5.

Having a one year deal that doesn't work out isn't damaging. Having a five year deal that doesn't work out is incredibly damaging. And, it's almost assuredly not going to work out if history is any indication.

Spending more on a guy doesn't ensure production.

 

[mvk112]

Francisco Liriano is tied with Jeff Locke at the bottom of the rotation as a -0.4 WAR pitcher. He's been a complete and total mess by every metric.

You do realize Jeff Locke has an ERA of about 6.00, right? I'm sure you think he's just unlucky though, right? Total lack of talent has nothing to do with it.

 

[mvk112]

I would rather have those guys for 1 year than Zimmermann for 5.

Having a one year deal that doesn't work out isn't damaging. Having a five year deal that doesn't work out is incredibly damaging. And, it's almost assuredly not going to work out if history is any indication.

Spending more on a guy doesn't ensure production.

You're dense.

Jordan Zimmerman is one of the most consistent pitchers in baseball over the past six years. He's 30 years old (signed through age 34) doesn't walk anybody, and doesn't give up a ton of HR. If you would rather have those three clowns for 1 year than Jordan Zimmerman for five years, then you are a fan of NH and Bob Nutting, and don't care how the team fares, only about some stupid process that hasn't won a division or playoff series, and is causing a dramatic drop off in what should've been a step forward year. Cutch in prime, Kang adjusted to league, Marte hitting prime, Polanco adjusted and breaking out... but the front office punted with this joke of a rotation by going with Locke, Nicasio, and Niese.

If you can't admit they erred big time, you will agree with whatever slop NH puts out there.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

You do realize Jeff Locke has an ERA of about 6.00, right? I'm sure you think he's just unlucky though, right? Total lack of talent has nothing to do with it.

Francisco Liriano is walking 5.45 batters per 9 innings. Why would you be surprised that he's considered less than worthless at this point?

 

[mvk112]

Francisco Liriano is walking 5.45 batters per 9 innings. Why would you be surprised that he's considered less than worthless at this point?

I'm sorry, I'm still laughing at you for saying -

That Jon Lester (1.89 ERA, 0.95 WHIP) & John Lackey (2.66 ERA& 0.93 WHIP) have very little to do with the Cubs success.

That Dexter Fowler doesn't count because he signed late. Never mind the fact that Theo had him in his back pocket, knowing Fowler wanted to be in Chicago. Fowler turned down a multi year offer to re-sign with the Cubs, and he's killing it.

That you would rather have Locke, Nicasio, Vogelsong, and Niese for 1 year than Jordan Zimmerman for 5 years. You do realize the goal is to win baseball games, and to do so, you need good pitchers, right?

 

[Pittbaseball11]

You're dense.

Jordan Zimmerman is one of the most consistent pitchers in baseball over the past six years. He's 30 years old (signed through age 34) doesn't walk anybody, and doesn't give up a ton of HR. If you would rather have those three clowns for 1 year than Jordan Zimmerman for five years, then you are a fan of NH and Bob Nutting, and don't care how the team fares, only about some stupid process that hasn't won a division or playoff series, and is causing a dramatic drop off in what should've been a step forward year. Cutch in prime, Kang adjusted to league, Marte hitting prime, Polanco adjusted and breaking out... but the front office punted with this joke of a rotation by going with Locke, Nicasio, and Niese.

If you can't admit they erred big time, you will agree with whatever slop NH puts out there.

Nobody with an ounce of credibility thought this was a step forward year, you loon. Everybody saw them stepping back to get up their prospects and get them acclimated.

If somebody did think this was supposed to be a step forward year, they're a myopic idiot who pays absolutely no attention to anything outside of Pittsburgh.

It's wonderful that underrated ace Jordan Zimmermann was really good up until age 30. I think I'm going to take my chances that a guy who currently sports a 5.65 K/9 and is seeing a velocity drop for the 2nd year in a row isn't going to quite keep it up going forward.

At the very least, he hasn't been what the Tigers paid for this offseason so far in his tenure. That 4.59 xFIP is a run higher than it's been over the course of his career.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

I'm sorry, I'm still laughing at you for saying -

That Jon Lester (1.89 ERA, 0.95 WHIP) & John Lackey (2.66 ERA& 0.93 WHIP) have very little to do with the Cubs success.

That Dexter Fowler doesn't count because he signed late. Never mind the fact that Theo had him in his back pocket, knowing Fowler wanted to be in Chicago. Fowler turned down a multi year offer to re-sign with the Cubs, and he's killing it.

That you would rather have Locke, Nicasio, Vogelsong, and Niese for 1 year than Jordan Zimmerman for 5 years. You do realize the goal is to win baseball games, and to do so, you need good pitchers, right?

Lester and Lackey are fine, but that's still going to be a damn good team without them. They might go from, what, a team on a 110 win pace to a team on a 102 win pace?

On Fowler, I'm just using yinzer logic. It was sarcasm. He was a dumpster dive, so I was just dismissing him outright like people in Pittsburgh do to Pirates players who are dumpster dives.

And the goal is to maximize your competitive horizon. There's no correlation between being the best team and winning the World Series. I would gladly take a step back for one year if it means I'm not cutting short my horizon by 3 or more years. It's just logic. The game doesn't happen in a one year vacuum.

 

[mvk112]

If you think the Cubs would be a 102 win team if they replaced Lester and Lackey with garbage like Niese/Locke/Nicasio then you're one if the dumbest sports fans I've ever had the misfortune to communicate with.

But then you go ahead and say Fowler was a dumpster dive, and that confirms your idiocy.

 

[mvk112]

Nobody with an ounce of credibility thought this was a step forward year, you loon. Everybody saw them stepping back to get up their prospects and get them acclimated.

If somebody did think this was supposed to be a step forward year, they're a myopic idiot who pays absolutely no attention to anything outside of Pittsburgh.

It's wonderful that underrated ace Jordan Zimmermann was really good up until age 30. I think I'm going to take my chances that a guy who currently sports a 5.65 K/9 and is seeing a velocity drop for the 2nd year in a row isn't going to quite keep it up going forward.

At the very least, he hasn't been what the Tigers paid for this offseason so far in his tenure. That 4.59 xFIP is a run higher than it's been over the course of his career.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. This was the year to go for it, absolutely no way anyone should be satisfied/happy/acceptable of a step back year.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

If you think the Cubs would be a 102 win team if they replaced Lester and Lackey with garbage like Niese/Locke/Nicasio then you're one if the dumbest sports fans I've ever had the misfortune to communicate with.

But then you go ahead and say Fowler was a dumpster dive, and that confirms your idiocy.

Fowler was as much of a dumpster dive as any of the guys the Pirates have brought in on "dumpster dive" moves. That's my point. I'm using Pittsburgh definitions for similar situations. Fowler didn't have many suitors, Fowler signed a very reasonable contract, Fowler has been good. Those are the only facts that matter, really, but that don't stop people from saying that somebody like Kang or Burnett or Cervelli or Martin was just a dumpster dive the Pirates got lucky on.

I think they could replace Lester and Lackey with any replacement level pitcher and still be on a 100 win pace pretty easily. The Pirates were on a 93-win pace at the beginning of June with Niese/Locke/Nicasio in the rotation, Cole not being close to Arrieta, and Liriano being a dumpster fire. And I think the Pirates and Cubs have very similar offensive firepower, so it's not like the Pirates carried the team further than you'd expect the Cubs to be able to carry their team.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. This was the year to go for it, absolutely no way anyone should be satisfied/happy/acceptable of a step back year.

Every year is "the year to go for it". People were trying to trade Polanco, Bell, and Taillon for Paul Goldschmidt last year for chrissakes. It was the same "well, you know, Polanco just might never get it so you should capitalize on him now because he's still pretty much a prospect", "well, you don't know for sure how Taillon will come back from injury and you have Glasnow still so you'll be fine", "if Polanco doesn't get it you're screwed so just go get Goldschmidt, the other 2 guys are just prospects anyway". Turned into a massive thread on the pay board. Just shortsighted justification after shortsighted justification.

This is why fans and sportswriters are fans and sportswriters, while baseball front offices are baseball front offices. The closest those groups come to mingling is at a site like Baseball Prospectus, where they have a mass exodus of writers/scouts at the end of each season because they get hired into front office roles.

 

[mvk112]

Fowler was as much of a dumpster dive as any of the guys the Pirates have brought in on "dumpster dive" moves. That's my point. I'm using Pittsburgh definitions for similar situations. Fowler didn't have many suitors, Fowler signed a very reasonable contract, Fowler has been good. Those are the only facts that matter, really, but that don't stop people from saying that somebody like Kang or Burnett or Cervelli or Martin was just a dumpster dive the Pirates got lucky on.

I think they could replace Lester and Lackey with any replacement level pitcher and still be on a 100 win pace pretty easily. The Pirates were on a 93-win pace at the beginning of June with Niese/Locke/Nicasio in the rotation, Cole not being close to Arrieta, and Liriano being a dumpster fire. And I think the Pirates and Cubs have very similar offensive firepower, so it's not like the Pirates carried the team further than you'd expect the Cubs to be able to carry their team.

Dexter Fowler has been one of the better CF in baseball lately, the guy plays decent defense (on Cutch's level), gets on base a ton, stole 20 bases last year, and hit 17 HR last year.

He's far and beyond better than any free agent the Pirates have ever signed, Russell Martin included.

 

[mvk112]

Would you trade any two of the three clowns for Lester and Lackey?

 

[NTOP]

The Padres sold for $800M in 2012, the Pirates would get close to $1B four years later in Nutting put them up for sale.

I don't think they should jettison those four, they should've never been on the 2016 team to begin with. That's $18m for a combined 5.14 ERA and 1.46 WHIP.

ROOT isn't going to be out of business anytime soon. They get great ratings for both the Pens and the Pirates, they're amongst the safest bets of any RSN in sports right now.

By the way, netting $30M (actually $35.3M estimated in 2015), puts them in the top ten in baseball. Not sure why you're saying to net $30M like its low. Most teams are lower because they actually spend money accordingly.

Not that great an ROI...that'd be 3% on your "value".

 

[KennyTheKangaroo]

Folwer is a crappy defensive outfield in terms of defensive runs saved.

 

[pittdan77]

33-33

 

[mvk112]

Not that great an ROI...that'd be 3% on your "value".

Except the value of the franchise has gone from $92M when they bought it 20 years ago to an estimated $975M this year, which is an annualized return of 12%.

Not to mention they are getting those $30M-$35M yearly profits on a $92M investment, not a $975M investment.

If you don't think that is an incredible "value", then I don't necessarily think you should be talking much about finances.

 

[QuitCallingMeWanny]

The bottom line is NH missed on the pieces he got this year, now injuries are piling up something they didn't have to deal with alot the past three years....it had nothing to do with spending money, being cheap, etc...He admitted as much on his radio show, it happens....We'll see when he recalibrates what happens

Everything else is just white noise by clueless yinzers, and bloggers who are hacks

 

[TD_istheman]

And we have won what since the penguins , steelers have won numerous championships since 79!

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Dexter Fowler has been one of the better CF in baseball lately, the guy plays decent defense (on Cutch's level), gets on base a ton, stole 20 bases last year, and hit 17 HR last year.

He's far and beyond better than any free agent the Pirates have ever signed, Russell Martin included.

My point went way over your head.

I'm out. And you're probably selling Kang short.

 

[Pittguy1980]

That wasn't the national sites saying that, it was the local blogs doing what they do... Propaganda for the front office. You still have David Todd defending Jeff Locke to this day, and Timmy doing his best to defend the front office for keeping Glasnow down. If Glasnow gets called up to replace Locke next week, both of those guys will change their tune so fast their readers won't know what him them.

This is one of the best offenses in the NL, even with Cutch a bit down. If they even had league average pitching in the spots of the three jokers, they'd be at the top of the Wild Card race. Give them a legitimate SP, Taillon, and Glasnow for the majority of the year, and they're not out of it for the division just yet.

But now, you're going to see guys like Melancon, Freese, Joyce, and maybe even Jaso dealt away. But, as he did when he sold off talent in the past, NH will go for quantity over quality, ensuring he gets a 4th OF and SP that nobody else wants back. And in no way will that help them now or in the future.

But, at least they have that proprietary analytics system that tells them it's a good idea to have three terrible SP in the rotation.

And by the way, why on earth would anyone think it's a good idea to punt on a year of the prime of Cutch/Kang/Marte? That is one of the stupidest theories ever floated about, and if it was the plan of the front office, they're the dumbest group of people ever put together.

Let's waste a year so we can maybe be better next year, despite our core being a year older!

GO BACK TO THE CIA.

 

[Pittguy1980]

Every year is "the year to go for it". People were trying to trade Polanco, Bell, and Taillon for Paul Goldschmidt last year for chrissakes. It was the same "well, you know, Polanco just might never get it so you should capitalize on him now because he's still pretty much a prospect", "well, you don't know for sure how Taillon will come back from injury and you have Glasnow still so you'll be fine", "if Polanco doesn't get it you're screwed so just go get Goldschmidt, the other 2 guys are just prospects anyway". Turned into a massive thread on the pay board. Just shortsighted justification after shortsighted justification.

This is why fans and sportswriters are fans and sportswriters, while baseball front offices are baseball front offices. The closest those groups come to mingling is at a site like Baseball Prospectus, where they have a mass exodus of writers/scouts at the end of each season because they get hired into front office roles.

Yep. The Pirates would not have taillon, Cole, cutch, marte, or Polanco if we listened to the fans. Bell, Glasnow, and meadows would be gone too.

Thank god people like MVk don't run the team.

 

[QuitCallingMeWanny]

And we have won what since the penguins , steelers have won numerous championships since 79!

I realize your life sucks and your self esteem is tied to championships........

 

[mvk112]

Yep. The Pirates would not have taillon, Cole, cutch, marte, or Polanco if we listened to the fans. Bell, Glasnow, and meadows would be gone too.

Thank god people like MVk don't run the team.

What in the world are you talking about? The benefit of signing good players is that you don't have to trade anyone away.

You're really dense. Have fun cheering for Locke, Niese, and Nicasio.

 

[Pittguy1980]

What in the world are you talking about? The benefit of signing good players is that you don't have to trade anyone away.

You're really dense. Have fun cheering for Locke, Niese, and Nicasio.

People wanted to trade marte for Carlos Beltran 5 years ago. They wanted to trade Polanco for everyone last year. They wanted to trade taillon for Stanton 2 years ago. They wanted to trade Glasnow for price.

What are you talking about? If the Pirates did that, the team's window would be closed instead of having a future that looks like they can compete the next 5 years.

 

[TD_istheman]

Deflect ballwashers

 

[CaptainMurphy]

We will probably be lucky to be within 5 of the last WC spot by the AS break with this sorry rotation. NH most definitely needed to go out and grab a 3 along the lines of JA Happ. Niese has performed OK but he should be a 4/5 on a championship caliber team.

Someone at ESPN wrote a piece a day or two ago about how now is the time to trade Cutch. It's obviously a piece meant to shock more than anything, but it got me to thinking about when we should trade him. If Meadows continues to crush in the minors and makes it to AAA this year, does he enter the picture for 2017? If so, what does a healthy and rebounded Cutch fetch this offseason with two years left on his contract? I'd have to think any discussion would need to center around a young, cost controlled ace-level major league pitcher, maybe a 1B w/ some power, and a healthy haul of prospects. I'm not advocating trading Cutch in 2016, but it may be the only way to get to the next level if ownership isn't willing to spend more.

 

[Delpanther]

The whole "the Marlins won 2 WS, how bad can Jeffrey Loria be?" question just cleared up so much for me.

Owners are actually indistinguishable from the franchise. The Pirates were cheap for 20 years under a previous owner, ergo, still cheap now despite breaking spending records in the draft, investing a ton of money in the Dominican, keeping everybody they should regardless of price (seriously, 8 figures to a relief pitcher is unheard of for a cheap team), building a proprietary analytics database, and staffing what's regarded as one of the more aggressive analytics departments in MLB.

Analytics staff...lol. Spend some money on major league players. The analytics staff was hired to rationalize the bottom basement budget.

 

[mvk112]

We will probably be lucky to be within 5 of the last WC spot by the AS break with this sorry rotation. NH most definitely needed to go out and grab a 3 along the lines of JA Happ. Niese has performed OK but he should be a 4/5 on a championship caliber team.

Someone at ESPN wrote a piece a day or two ago about how now is the time to trade Cutch. It's obviously a piece meant to shock more than anything, but it got me to thinking about when we should trade him. If Meadows continues to crush in the minors and makes it to AAA this year, does he enter the picture for 2017? If so, what does a healthy and rebounded Cutch fetch this offseason with two years left on his contract? I'd have to think any discussion would need to center around a young, cost controlled ace-level major league pitcher, maybe a 1B w/ some power, and a healthy haul of prospects. I'm not advocating trading Cutch in 2016, but it may be the only way to get to the next level if ownership isn't willing to spend more.

Niese was booted from the Mets rotation last year, he's no 4 on a team with championship aspirations.

 

[PeetWeet1]

Analytics staff...lol. Spend some money on major league players. The analytics staff was hired to rationalize the bottom basement budget.

No, it wasn't. This is an area that the Bucs have done very well and different from most teams, and businesses for that matter. One of their analysts is a young ex. D3 wide receiver who travels with the team. For the Pirates, data analysis is not a one-way street, but more of a closed loop process. Questions that are asked and theories that are tested come from analysts, coaches and players. Reading 'Big Data Baseball' helped me a great deal at work. Just do not let the name fool you, the book is not a maths book, nor does baseball analysis involve much big data.