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OT:Buccos

mvk112 said:
He was pitching 7 innings in Indy in April, and skipped one start at the end of May, quit making things up. In fact, he only threw less than 6 innings once, and it wasn't because of some imaginary limit.

He should have been pitching those innings in Pittsburgh, not Indy.
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He threw 7 innings because he got though them in 89 pitches and they needed to keep him stretched out.

It was well documented that he was on tight pitch counts, generally around 85 pitches. If he was at or above 85 when the next inning began, he was out of the game. That's a 5-6 inning limit (usual metric is you want to get through each inning in 15 pitches).
 
mvk112 said:
The NBA has a salary cap, yet the same teams go to the Finals just about every year.
Golden State was a doormat for 40 years and now you want to tell me the same teams go every year. lol

The NFL has a salary cap, yet only 4 QBs have taken AFC teams to the Super Bowl in the past 15 years (Brady, Ben, Manning, Flacco).
This illustrates the value of a franchise quarterback. Some teams figure that out others do not. However, they all have the same amount of money to acquire their players whether they value a franchise QB or not.

Baseball has the most parity of any sport, there is absolutely nothing wrong with baseball or how it is run.
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A small market team can win but it must be run at near perfect levels. Yankees and Bosox dominated baseball for a while. Cardinals and Giants have represented the NL lately. Outside of the cubs who are surging, the Pirates recent efforts and KC in the AL, it is alot of the same teams being heard from. Some deserve credit for being run well, but baseball is not fine in my opinion.
 
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Pittbaseball11 said:
He threw 7 innings because he got though them in 89 pitches and they needed to keep him stretched out.

It was well documented that he was on tight pitch counts, generally around 85 pitches. If he was at or above 85 when the next inning began, he was out of the game. That's a 5-6 inning limit (usual metric is you want to get through each inning in 15 pitches).
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So yeah, you were wrong all around. Didn't skip starts, wasn't on a 5 inning limit. You'll go along with any narrative (probably invented by Tim Williams) to praise the front office for wasting two months.
 
mvk112 said:
So yeah, you were wrong all around. Didn't skip starts, wasn't on a 5 inning limit. You'll go along with any narrative (probably invented by Tim Williams) to praise the front office for wasting two months.
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Did skip starts, was on a less than 6 inning pitch count limit.

As much as we like to play results do people think a .184 BABIP is sustainable? Good luck getting through the 6th consistently with an 85 pitch limit and most at bats ending with the ball put in play as they have been.

You are super paranoid and emotional. I don't get it.
 
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mvk112 said:
There is more parity in baseball than any other sport, any team in any can win, and guess what, they do. Kansas City won the World Series last year, St. Louis has won a few lately, small market teams all over make the playoffs.

The Pirates have a $110m or so payroll on about $250m revenue. If they spent to 55% of their revenue like NFL teams do, they'd be in a better position to contend for an actual championship.
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There is more parity in baseball than any other sport? Huh?
 
He skipped one start (not multiple starts) in late May, he was not on any innings limit.

The Pirates could hold Glasnow down until next June and you'd praise them for spreading out the arbitration status of him and Taillon.

It's ridiculous how people in this town are fans of the front office instead of the team. These are the same fans who constantly place blame on Andrew McCutchen and Gerrit Cole though, instead of the GM who builds a team with a rotation that includes Juan Nicasio, Jeff Locke, and Jon Niese (not to mention the bullpen with Shugel, Scahill, Lobstein, and Luebke).
 
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mvk112 said:
He skipped one start (not multiple starts) in late May, he was not on any innings limit.

The Pirates could hold Glasnow down until next June and you'd praise them for spreading out the arbitration status of him and Taillon.

It's ridiculous how people in this town are fans of the front office instead of the team. These are the same fans who constantly place blame on Andrew McCutchen and Gerrit Cole though, instead of the GM who builds a team with a rotation that includes Juan Nicasio, Jeff Locke, and Jon Niese (not to mention the bullpen with Shugel, Scahill, Lobstein, and Luebke).
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LOL. Okay, pitch count limit. Not innings limit, even though for all intents and purposes it was also an innings limit.

I would praise them for keeping Glasnow down until he develops a changeup. I don't know when that will be.

I've never blamed McCutchen or Cole.

Nobody deserves blame for anything at this point. The Pirates are adhering to small market principles as well as any reasonable person could ask, and the players have been damn good. Anybody looking to place blame anywhere is just part of the lowest common denominator that sports talk radio is playing to.

There's a reason people outside of Pittsburgh -- people who actually pay attention to baseball in general -- genuinely respect the organization and its players, and people in Pittsburgh don't -- because Pittsburgh is looking to place blame somewhere. It's too dumb of a town to function any other way.
 
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Let me know when the Pirates have this.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christi...inals-score-a-1-billion-tv-deal/#782938741445

Let me also know when the Pirates draw 3.3 million plus every year.

The Pirates did finally though bump up ticket prices, but prior to that the average ticket price for a pirate game had always been about 15 dollars less than the Cardinals.

And if you want to use the cardinals as an example of teams that spend money the way you want the pirates to do it, that really isn't going to help your argument.
 
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Pittbaseball11 said:
I would praise them for keeping Glasnow down until he develops a changeup. I don't know when that will be.
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Just what I thought, straight from the Tim Williams playbook. What a joke. Glasnow's change up is fine for a third pitch, it doesn't have to be perfect for him to pitch at a high level in the majors. His change up is on par with where Cole's was as a rookie, and Cole managed to get MLB batters out somehow. Maybe it was his dominating fastball and his slider. Glasnow's curve is right there with Cole's slider as a secondary pitch, and his fastball is just as dominant. I'm sure you bless the change up as developed if NH calls Glasnow up this week. Just like Taillon magically became ready to pitch in the majors last week and completely shut down the Mets tonight.

You act like a 90 pitch limit is any different from any other young pitcher across baseball these days. It's not, it's fairly common.

Both of these kids should've been in Pittsburgh in April once the service time clock hit 170 days.
 
Pittguy1980 said:
Let me know when the Pirates have this.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christi...inals-score-a-1-billion-tv-deal/#782938741445

Let me also know when the Pirates draw 3.3 million plus every year.

The Pirates did finally though bump up ticket prices, but prior to that the average ticket price for a pirate game had always been about 15 dollars less than the Cardinals.

And if you want to use the cardinals as an example of teams that spend money the way you want the pirates to do it, that really isn't going to help your argument.
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There is more parity generally because there's so much unpredictability within the sport. It's why there's no evidence that "going all-in" is actually something that works. Too much randomness goes on in a season, to say nothing of how much occurs just within a single game.

Generally there's a survivorship bias when it comes to big market teams winning it all because 1) they have a massive margin for error when it comes to putting together a good team and 2) their down cycles don't tend to be as severe or abrupt as small market teams.

So at any point in time you'll always have more big market teams capable of contending than you will small market teams.

A small market team can be sunk for multiple years with 1 or 2 bad moves. A big market team will just keep throwing money at the problem knowing that the law of averages dictates that at least one of the moves has to work out.
 
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Pittguy1980 said:
Let me know when the Pirates have this.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christi...inals-score-a-1-billion-tv-deal/#782938741445

Let me also know when the Pirates draw 3.3 million plus every year.

The Pirates did finally though bump up ticket prices, but prior to that the average ticket price for a pirate game had always been about 15 dollars less than the Cardinals.

And if you want to use the cardinals as an example of teams that spend money the way you want the pirates to do it, that really isn't going to help your argument.
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The Pirates destroyed baseball in this town for 20 years, of course they aren't going to draw 3.3m or get a tv deal like that. You know what would get them close to there by the time their tv deal is up for renewal in a few years? Going all out and winning a championship. Continuing to finish in second place and not winning playoff series won't move the needle near enough.

The Cardinals built a profitable brand by winning championships, not settling for second place.
 
mvk112 said:
The Pirates destroyed baseball in this town for 20 years, of course they aren't going to draw 3.3m or get a tv deal like that. You know what would get them close to there by the time their tv deal is up for renewal in a few years? Going all out and winning a championship. Continuing to finish in second place and not winning playoff series won't move the needle near enough.

The Cardinals built a profitable brand by winning championships, not settling for second place.
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For the 5000th time, the Pirates didn't settle for second place last year. The cardinals were just really good. They won 98 games. How much more could they have done??? Please tell me how you can guarantee a championship?

And if you really think the Pirates could ever draw 3.3 million, you are absolutely clueless on the subject.
 
mvk112 said:
Just what I thought, straight from the Tim Williams playbook. What a joke. Glasnow's change up is fine for a third pitch, it doesn't have to be perfect for him to pitch at a high level in the majors. His change up is on par with where Cole's was as a rookie, and Cole managed to get MLB batters out somehow. Maybe it was his dominating fastball and his slider. Glasnow's curve is right there with Cole's slider as a secondary pitch, and his fastball is just as dominant. I'm sure you bless the change up as developed if NH calls Glasnow up this week. Just like Taillon magically became ready to pitch in the majors last week and completely shut down the Mets tonight.

You act like a 90 pitch limit is any different from any other young pitcher across baseball these days. It's not, it's fairly common.

Both of these kids should've been in Pittsburgh in April once the service time clock hit 170 days.
Click to expand...

Seriously? Tell me how well you think Glasnow walking 4.5 batters per 9 would play up here. Even if he wasn't walking people at that rate, I still have no issues with the Pirates being smart and maximizing their assets rather than stupidly listening to fans like you who would have run the team bankrupt, and traded all their good prospects for veterans that suck.

Go back to the CIA to discuss baseball. You guys are the dumbest set of baseball fans I have encountered. Take del with you.
 
Pittguy1980 said:
Seriously? Tell me how well you think Glasnow walking 4.5 batters per 9 would play up here. Even if he wasn't walking people at that rate, I still have no issues with the Pirates being smart and maximizing their assets rather than stupidly listening to fans like you who would have run the team bankrupt, and traded all their good prospects for veterans that suck.
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LOL maximizing their assets. Don't worry about trying to win a championship, or even a division, as long as you 'maximize your assets'.

In the meantime, you have the prime of Cutch, Kang, and Marte that you are undermining by having junk like Nicasio, Locke, and Niese in the rotation. Don't worry maximizing those assets. The only thing that matters is payroll six years from now.

Do you have a hat with NH on it that you wear while watching the game?
 
mvk112 said:
He was pitching 7 innings in Indy in April, and skipped only one start at the end of May, quit making things up. In fact, he only threw less than 6 innings once, and it wasn't because of some imaginary limit.

He should have been pitching those innings in Pittsburgh, not Indy.
Click to expand...

You realize he missed the entire 2014 and 2015 seasons, and prior to this season, he had 6 AAA starts under his belt?

What shocking in this thread is that mvk is really level headed about the basketball program but completely out of wack regarding the pirates
 
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Also, he skipped that start at the end of the may so that he could get his schedule lined up with juan nicasio's.
 
mvk112 said:
LOL maximizing their assets. Don't worry about trying to win a championship, or even a division, as long as you 'maximize your assets'.

In the meantime, you have the prime of Cutch, Kang, and Marte that you are undermining by having junk like Nicasio, Locke, and Niese in the rotation. Don't worry maximizing those assets. The only thing that matters is payroll six years from now.

Do you have a hat with NH on it that you wear while watching the game?
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No, what matters is having as many chances as possible to win a ws/division/championship etc rather than trying to sell out for one year. The odds of winning in any given year are not good, even if you trade for say David price.

I see you have yet to acknowledge that the Pirates gave guys like marte, cutch, and kang because of shrewd moves and signings.

Finally, the last time a team won 98 games and didn't win a division was 2003 I think. What exactly else were they supposed to do last year beyond poisoning the cardinals best players?
 
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mvk112 said:
He was pitching 7 innings in Indy in April, and skipped only one start at the end of May, quit making things up. In fact, he only threw less than 6 innings once, and it wasn't because of some imaginary limit.

He should have been pitching those innings in Pittsburgh, not Indy.
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Name one freaking GM in baseball that would have thrown Taillon in there in April after not throwing basically for two years? Name one I will sit here and wait......get a freaking clue
 
And MVk, just like I say to bball fans that constantly moaned about Dixon, I will say the same thing to people like you and del about the Pirates....you deserve a losing team.

The last 5 years of baseball where te Pirates have been competitive deep into the season has been amazing for me to watch, especially after the previous two decades of garbage. Instead of enjoying it, some fans seem to be more miserable than when they were losing 95 games. It is pathetic.
 
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Pittguy1980 said:
Seriously? Tell me how well you think Glasnow walking 4.5 batters per 9 would play up here. Even if he wasn't walking people at that rate, I still have no issues with the Pirates being smart and maximizing their assets rather than stupidly listening to fans like you who would have run the team bankrupt, and traded all their good prospects for veterans that suck.

Go back to the CIA to discuss baseball. You guys are the dumbest set of baseball fans I have encountered. Take del with you.
Click to expand...

I literally posted a scouting report earlier in this thread from a couple of Baseball Propectus guys that said Glasnow's changeup is a batting practice fastball but there is STILL paranoia whenever somebody calls the pitch garbage.

I wen to the CIA board yesterday and it just made me sad. It was like a Trump rally. I want to believe those people don't exist, but they do.
 
mvk112 said:
Just what I thought, straight from the Tim Williams playbook. What a joke. Glasnow's change up is fine for a third pitch, it doesn't have to be perfect for him to pitch at a high level in the majors. His change up is on par with where Cole's was as a rookie, and Cole managed to get MLB batters out somehow. Maybe it was his dominating fastball and his slider. Glasnow's curve is right there with Cole's slider as a secondary pitch, and his fastball is just as dominant. I'm sure you bless the change up as developed if NH calls Glasnow up this week. Just like Taillon magically became ready to pitch in the majors last week and completely shut down the Mets tonight.

You act like a 90 pitch limit is any different from any other young pitcher across baseball these days. It's not, it's fairly common.

Both of these kids should've been in Pittsburgh in April once the service time clock hit 170 days.
Click to expand...
Wrong on pretty much everything in this post....well done.....
 
QuitCallingMeWanny said:
Wrong on pretty much everything in this post....well done.....
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"His changeup is at least on par with Gerrit Cole's as a rookie"......I audibly laughed.

Some scouting reports were putting 60's and future 70's on Cole's changeup in AAA. Most at least gave him a future 60. Glasnow is getting 40's and 45's. Or, in the case of 2080 Baseball (an offshoot of Baseball Prospectus), they put a present 30 grade on his changeup and a future 40 grade on it.

This is to say nothing of his command and control, which received grades of 40 (both presently and in the future) and 45 (same deal), respectively.

They also filed this report on Taillon. His changeup, command, and control are all presently at least a full grade higher than Glasnow's. Also mentioned they need to monitor his workload after missing the last 2 years -- interesting, I wouldn't have thought they would have accepted bribes from the Pirates front office to say that.
 
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So it's okay for Taillon to use up those pitches in AAA where they're meaningless, instead of helping the MLB club?

You guys will eat up everything they feed you.

Baseball America gives Glasnow a 50 grade on his change up, which is fine for a third pitch when your first two are plus pitches that induce swing-and-misses.

I guess you truly believe Janeson Taillon wasn't ready to pitch in the big leagues until a week ago, right? Truly amazing that people actually buy into their BS.
 
mvk112 said:
So it's okay for Taillon to use up those pitches in AAA where they're meaningless, instead of helping the MLB club?

You guys will eat up everything they feed you.

Baseball America gives Glasnow a 50 grade on his change up, which is fine for a third pitch when your first two are plus pitches that induce swing-and-misses.

I guess you truly believe Janeson Taillon wasn't ready to pitch in the big leagues until a week ago, right? Truly amazing that people actually buy into their BS.
Click to expand...

I think their bs is the smart way to do business.
 
mvk112 said:
So it's okay for Taillon to use up those pitches in AAA where they're meaningless, instead of helping the MLB club?

You guys will eat up everything they feed you.

Baseball America gives Glasnow a 50 grade on his change up, which is fine for a third pitch when your first two are plus pitches that induce swing-and-misses.

I guess you truly believe Janeson Taillon wasn't ready to pitch in the big leagues until a week ago, right? Truly amazing that people actually buy into their BS.
Click to expand...

Baseball America also says, right underneath their grades, "Based on 20-80 scouting scale—where 50 represents major league average—and future projection rather than present tools."

They also say this in his scouting report, "He has worked to develop his changeup, and it is improving, though it grades as a tick below-average at this point." So, that's a 40-grade present changeup, which he's pairing with spotty command and control. Like I said, he's Juan Nicasio at present.

And on Taillon, it would depend on what you mean by ready. Ready to hit the ground running and take on a full workload, totally unencumbered? Yeah, I believe that to be the case. Ready to get guys out on a limited basis? He was probably ready in mid-May for that.

In general my preference would be that you aren't still managing workloads once guys get to the major league level. You can do it to an extent with the All-Star break, obviously, but I see no reason to tax a starter or overwork a bullpen at the MLB level outside of rejiggering the rotation coming off of nearly a full week of rest.

There's enough weird stuff that goes on in a baseball season that there's no real reason to add more obstacles in.
 
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mvk112 said:
So it's okay for Taillon to use up those pitches in AAA where they're meaningless, instead of helping the MLB club?

You guys will eat up everything they feed you.

Baseball America gives Glasnow a 50 grade on his change up, which is fine for a third pitch when your first two are plus pitches that induce swing-and-misses.

I guess you truly believe Janeson Taillon wasn't ready to pitch in the big leagues until a week ago, right? Truly amazing that people actually buy into their BS.
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Are you going to answer my question? What GM in their right mind would have started Taillon in the majors in April after not pitching for basically two years? Dont be a Joe Yinzer with your unbelievable hindsight
 
QuitCallingMeWanny said:
Are you going to answer my question? What GM in their right mind would have started Taillon in the majors in April after not pitching for basically two years? Dont be a Joe Yinzer with your unbelievable hindsight
Click to expand...

What GM in their right mind would think it's a good idea to go into a season with Jon Niese, Juan Nicasio, and Jeff Locke in their starting rotation?

Jameson Taillon showed he was ready to pitch at this level by the third week of the season, he had plenty of work in extended spring training last year, in fall instructs, and in spring training this year. After three starts in AAA, when he was past his service day cutoff, he should have been on the MLB roster.
 
mvk112 said:
he had plenty of work in extended spring training last year, in fall instructs, and in spring training this year. After three starts in AAA, when he was past his service day cutoff, he should have been on the MLB roster.
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Oh my god.....

Also, people are really unnecessarily killing Locke, Niese, and Nicasio if part of the solution is "well, go sign [insert 4th/5th starter here] instead". It's a classic case of playing the results and using hindsight rather than stepping back and using all of the available information.

People here wanted them to sign Mat Latos, too. Interesting how that one isn't coming up as a "oh my god how could they settle on Juan Nicasio instead of Mat Latos?" point of contention. Scott Kazmir hasn't been spoken about too much, even after people really wanted him. If I remember correctly, he was probably the most desired free agent on here. People wanted Brandon McCarthy badly 2 years ago, too. Haven't heard that name come up when talking about going cheap. It's all entirely hindsight based. There's no consistency.

JA Happ's FIP and xFIP so far this year are both worse than Nicasio's, while his xFIP is worse than Niese's. He's been the beneficiary of batted ball luck, and not much else. But, again, we're playing the results and assuming his good luck would also cancel out his subpar performance in Pittsburgh like it's done so far in Toronto.
 
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LOL people are unnecessarily killing Niese, Locke, and Nicasio.

Niese - 4.60 ERA, 1.45 WHIP, 1.7 HR/9, 5.20 FIP
Locke - 5.38 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, 1.4 HR/9, 5.25 FIP
Nicasio - 5.34 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 1.4 HR/9, 4.40 FIP

Yeah, unnecessarily killing them.

All praise to NH for putting together this championship caliber rotation!
 
mvk112 said:
LOL people are unnecessarily killing Niese, Locke, and Nicasio.

Niese - 4.60 ERA, 1.45 WHIP, 1.7 HR/9, 5.20 FIP
Locke - 5.38 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, 1.4 HR/9, 5.25 FIP
Nicasio - 5.34 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 1.4 HR/9, 4.40 FIP

Yeah, unnecessarily killing them.

All praise to NH for putting together this championship caliber rotation!
Click to expand...

Who should they have signed?
 
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